Caravan?s moved into car park at the old Grove Tavern pub

[Penguin68]

Unfortunately done by a community who will insist they?re misunderstood and oppressed by wider society. Their reputation precedes them, then they live up to it just make sure.

As I have said, above, there are two entirely separate groups of traditional Travellers, the Roma (or Romani) - who originated, linguistic and genetic research shows, in Northern India/ the Indus Valley (not Egypt) - ironically (considering the Nazi response to them) an old Aryan racial group; and Irish Travellers, most recently from Ireland, of course, but almost certainly, following the end of the last Ice Age, migrants from the Iberian Peninsula as the ice retreated in what became the British Isles. Nobody has yet identified which group our Travellers here are, to start pillorying them with specific reputations. Their outward life-styles (they are travellers) may be shared, but their societal norms, their traditions (even their language) isn't.

Until you know which group you are talking about, an accusation of being 'misunderstood' doesn't seem far off the mark.

And yes, I entirely agree that mass fly-tipping is entirely wrong and vile, and doesn't reflect a build up of refuse which can occur on a temporary site with no organised garbage collection, but is clearly an act of studied vandalism and criminality.

Edited to add:- Can I just say that specific references to the unacceptability of actions by a particular identified group of people (the travellers who occupied the pub and the BT exchange) are OK - but general discriminatory references to Roma/ Romani or Irish Travellers or Travellers in general, lumping the two together ('these people', 'typical' etc.) are leaning into a breach of the anti-discrimination legislation.

Hate this particular group of people, fine, but hating travellers, and making wild generalisations about them, as a class or group, isn't on. That is oppressive.

[Unicornic]

Just walked past and got a pic of one corner of the rubbish couldn't get a pic a pic of the other corner of rubbish because the children was their and didnt want to get a pic of the children. It's terrible!

[xapis85]

This is what's left at The Grove still after several lorry loads have already been taken away.

So they're still at the BT site then? Just awful that apparently nothing can easily be done to stop this illegal activity.

[Penguin68]

That picture suggests that they have fly-tipped builder's waste, probably for a back-hander. The people paying them to fly-tip bear some responsibility for all this (unless they have been doing a building job of their own, in which case the person paying for that (and probably not paying VAT etc.) has a responsibility). As for the drug gangs we hear so much about, it is the people buying the drugs who keep them in knives and acid. The more we play (and pay) into a black or criminal economy, the more we fuel criminality.

[Unicornic]

It's just awful they are all still their they have a 66 plate car and all have new looking cars too So I think you might be right with working and being paid to dispose of the rubbish and they aren't. The children are playing in all the rubbish its just disgusting.

[Toffee]

For goodness sake. This isn?t the ice age or the Middle Ages. My ancestors from the Stone Age walked on all fours, used rocks as weapons, would most probably kill anything and everything to survive. They would defecate wherever they felt like it. This is not those days. We have (hopefully) all evolved to become citizens who abide by the general rules of society. Why can?t this group of people do ditto.

[mattoutofhell]

It looks like a lot of the rubbish left is from domestic building sites.They are obviously finding work locally and then dumping the waste on the site they happen to occupy as it's cheaper than hiring a skip.In the last 2 weeks I have had 2 people knock on the door asking to do the drive.Someone's stupid enough to employ these "tradesmen".

[rendelharris]

.

[KidKruger]

Sorry penguin I don?t agree, though your posts are always educational and well thought-out.

Every travelling community I?ve seen in UK does seem to insist they?re misunderstood and oppressed (and I?m not saying they?re wrong).

So, for me, my comments are reasonable. I?m not hating anyone, just calling it out about right on these piss-takers.

The muppets at the BT TE will not be holding their hands up agreeing that they?re disingenuous opportunists will they !

[Penguin68]

Every travelling community I?ve seen in UK does seem to insist they?re misunderstood and oppressed (and I?m not saying they?re wrong).

I think it was your follow-up remark ('Their reputation precedes them, then they live up to it just make sure.') which I was concerned about - a generalisation which I understand but cannot agree with. There are refuse problems associated with travelling communities - who are not served by municipal rubbish collections (which, I agree, they have not paid for) - but this problem is entirely different from intentional fly-tipping of other people's rubbish.

But the more you demonise groups, the more they are likely to act as demons. I am very uneasy about a mind-set which tries to force people to live as you do - although tensions between, e.g. herders and farmers, or indeed hunter gatherers and pastoralists have a long and sad history. If you think of travellers as a peripatetic work force (as they were, and indeed still partly are) then they may seem less threatening.

But your take compared with the take of some other posters is still different (and welcomingly so) in tone.

[Angelina]

Threatening? JFC. So, I'm paying for clearing their crap, their kids are playing where they shite and this is ok? Whatever background or ethnicity, this is vile and abusive. They should be held to account and not play victims

[Sue]

Chick Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> It's obvious.

>

> Sue Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > bsand Wrote:

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> > -----

> > > Gypsies one of Hitler's untermenschen to be

> > > liquidated.

> >

> >

> > And your point is what, exactly?

If the point is so obvious, Chick, I must be very stupid as I can't grasp it.

So could you explain to me what Hitler's "liquidation" of Gypsies has to do with a thread about the behaviour of a specific, relatively small, group of travellers currently in East Dulwich?

Thanks.

[Angelina]

Yes Sue, they are a minority and therefore are privileged with tolerances because we're so scared of being labelled as racist/ intolerant

[Sue]

Angelina Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Yes Sue, they are a minority and therefore are

> privileged with tolerances because we're so scared

> of being labelled as racist/ intolerant

Sorry but that opinion does not explain what Hitler's killing of gypsies has to do with this instance, does it? Or am I being particularly dense?

[civilservant]

Angelina Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Yes Sue, they are a minority and therefore are privileged with tolerances because we're so scared

> of being labelled as racist/ intolerant

you are confusing two completely different things

travellers and gypsies belong to protected groups - this means that they are protected against harassment (which includes name-calling) for being members of that group

they've been given these protections because people have historically harassed them even when they've been minding their own business

BUT they do not have privileges under the law - if they break the law, they face the same sanctions as anyone else who breaks that law.

(poor old Penguin has tried to explain this already)

this lot have dumped stuff and made a mess of somewhere - THAT is the problem, not the fact that they are travellers, or, as one of the more charming posters above put it, 'do as you likeys'

[Angelina]

If that were the case there would be repurcussions for what has happened, but that doesn't appear to be happening. So, the two do seem to be interwoven

[NewWave]

They're going round offering to clear builders rubbish, cut trees etc etc then dumping the stuff and moving on.

My neighbour had them offer to do some clearance for her,

Its obviously what they do, move into an area and go door to door picking up cash jobs then moving on.

[civilservant]

Angelina Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> If that were the case there would be repurcussions for what has happened, but that doesn't appear to

> be happening. So, the two do seem to be interwoven

why interwoven?

the council should be sorting it out - has anyone affected complained to them?

and if the land is Dulwich Estates land, as reported in an earlier post, they should be acting as well, so they clearly don't see a problem with it, possibly even an opportunity

[uncleglen]

Toffee Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> This amount of fly tipping is despicable. These

> people have no conscience. They don?t give a damn

> for the environment or for anyone else but

> themselves. They hide behind the umbrella term

> ?traveller?, yes they might travel but only so as

> to avoid getting caught and punished.

Of course they don't give a fig for the environment because they don't actually live in it for long....I blame the people who enable them to persist in the illegal tipping.

[Penguin68]

If that were the case there would be repurcussions for what has happened, but that doesn't appear to be happening. So, the two do seem to be interwoven

The primary issue when travelers occupy private land is to remove them (as it would be for illegal squatting). Any consequential prosecutions for e.g. fly tipping require full identification of the fly tippers (who won't be the entire group) - otherwise the prosecution would fail. In fact, it's not worth the effort or bother to prosecute, particularly where (identification issue) a conviction probably doesn't pass the DPP 50% possibility test.

This is nothing about condoning illegal activities and everything about resource utilisation and practicality. Many other criminals also get in under the wire on those grounds. Sadly. But don't see a conspiracy where there isn't one.

[Charles Notice]

That explains when I passed this morning all visible number plates were covered up whilst they were off loading rubbish.

[civilservant]

Penguin68 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> The primary issue when travelers occupy private land is to remove them (as it would be for illegal

> squatting). Any consequential prosecutions for e.g. fly tipping require full identification of

> the fly tippers (who won't be the entire group) - otherwise the prosecution would fail.

I think Angelina is right to be puzzled, Penguin, the issue is not about having grounds for prosecution but about moving a bunch of squatters along where they are creating a public nuisance

the Council and police were quick to act when a band of Euro-crusties set up an illegal squat in the old police station on Crystal Palace Road a couple of years back, and again when a group squatted next to the Constitutional Club. those squatters didn't fly-tip all over the site, so were much less of a nuisance

so why isn't there any action here, where there is an actual health and safety hazard?

no wonder people are invoking conspiracy theories, and allowing some of the nastier Forum racists to have a field day

[Captain Marvel]

Apparently, they refuse to move until there is a court order, which may take five weeks or more.

[Patatina]

I live around the corner and have been following the developments.

Is the suggestion that the travellers are also responsible for the dumping of the waste (right next to where they live)?

[ianjm]

Patatina Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I live around the corner and have been following

> the developments.

> Is the suggestion that the travellers are also

> responsible for the dumping of the waste (right

> next to where they live)?

If they're not responsible, it's a truly remarkable coincidence that the fly tippers seem to fly tip right next to their caravan sites anywhere they show up!