Flying The Flag

[barrymarshall]

I was listening to the Today programme last week and Giles Brandreth was offering his tuppence-worth about the decision to fly the Union jack/flag (apparently it doesn't matter, in the end, which term you use) from major public buildings. He said, and I agree with him, that it is just un-British to wrap oneself up in the flag. Unlike, say, the French or the Americans, whose states were founded on revolution and nationalism, we Brits have no need to show off the flag and it actually makes us uncomfortable becuase of the use of flgas as symbols of jingoism, war and oppression. It is part of the British political culture that we simply do not need to be reminded that we, er, are in Britain. Unlike those uncouth Yanks of course!

Of course, there has long been an element of British society that is racist, jingoistic and oppressive and has wanted to turn the flag into a symbol of white power. I find it odd that now, at the moment in time that British identity is most in crisis, that people have these campaigns to "reclaim the flag". Why?

[citizenED]

Basically, a flag of St. George means "keep out" and most other flags you see mean "welcome". It is all to do with the Empire and all that.

[Peckhamgatecrasher]

BM - sorry to be a pedant but it's the Union Flag - only a Union Jack when it's on a boat.

[barrymarshall]

PGC:

Terminology: "Union Flag" or "Union Jack"?

The issue of whether to use the term "Union Flag" or "Union Jack" is a matter of some debate. One view is that "Union Jack" should only be used for the flag when it is flown as a jack (a small flag flown at the bow of a ship), but it is not universally accepted that the "Jack" of "Union Jack" is a reference to such a jack flag and is only an educated guess. The Flag Institute, the vexillological organisation for the United Kingdom, stated that the term Union Flag is a "relatively recent idea". It also noted that "From early in its life the Admiralty itself frequently referred to the flag as the Union Jack, whatever its use, and in 1902 an Admiralty Circular announced that Their Lordships had decided that either name could be used officially. Such use was given Parliamentary approval in 1908 when it was stated that "the Union Jack should be regarded as the National flag".

ETA: got this from Wikipedia, so I leave it up to you decide on its veracity, and in a wider context, your position in this argument.

My own view is that it is perfectly acceptable to call it the Union Jack.

[mockney piers]

I too heard the today programme saying that the terms were effectively interchangeable. I shrugged and thought at least there's one less thing in this world for people to be pedantic about.

Of course I wouldn't know what that's like ;-P

[SeanMacGabhann]

* coughs quietly *

Should that be "one fewer" thing to worry about?

[mockney piers]

Touch? :))

[Peckhamgatecrasher]

I humble myself before your greater knowledge - blame it on that fascist organisation the Girl Guides.

[mockney piers]

Don't ask me, it was Giles Brandreth, who of course knows everything, otherwise we would he have been such a stalwart on Countdown all these years?

The girls guides used to beat us up when we were cubs, 'dib dib dib' still fills me with horror.

[barrymarshall]

no, PCG, bow down with me before the great Wiki God ... an invaluable "fact-checking" service to lazy journos and debate point-scorers everywhere.

;-)

[Keef]

I heard a thing on R4 about the Union Jack/Flag a while ago which basically agreed with Wikipedia.

[*Bob*]

There's a cruel irony at work where you usually see your English flag proudly displayed: a tatty cross of St George pinned-up in the crumbling window of some damp block of flats.

[dulwichmum]

I think that we should get ourselves a flag for Dulwich - if one does not already exist.

Perhaps it could be baby blue (my favourite colour) with the image of a three wheeled pram in the middle and organic produce strewn around the edges?

[Jah Lush]

Good idea. A flag made out of organic hemp that can be proudly flown from all the buggies on the Lane and the 4x4s during the school run.

[citizenED]

And, with a couple of ingenious folds, said flag could double up as a re-usable shopping bag...

[dulwichmum]

Jah Lush, indeed. And the flag could also be hung from poles over the front door of any home with frost glass pannels and plantation shutters! Certainly CitizenEd a multifunctional flag would seem to be the perfect plan.

I love the idea of organic fabric - but I fear that hemp may not flutter so well in the breeze, perhaps organic cotton?

I feel really strongly that we need a symbol to unite behind. Has anyone got any more suggestions for images that may be on our ?baby blue organic ?cotton Dulwich flaglet?