Halal and Kosher Meat, your thoughts

[Jeremy]

Of course, nobody is forcing Halal/Kosher on us, and I've yet to see any evidence of it eroding British society.

Tarot's right about one thing though... it is mumbo jumbo crap.

[Sue]

Thomas Micklewright Wrote:

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> Harp. Explain sue - what was your point if I have

> missed it?

>

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I cannot make the point any more clearly than I already did in my previous post, so maybe you need to read it more carefully, sorry not to be more helpful.

[KidKruger]

Are kebabs at the local kebab shops halal ?

I know it won't be kosher.

I'm not bothered either way, just wondering whether the lamb I'm eating had it's throat slit while someone waffled stuff from a book or it juts got plain elctrocuted / a bolt in the brain.

[Ridgley]

It all about choice those who eat Halal/Kosher meat fine those who don't fine too.

[Thomas Micklewright]

Most takeaways appear to be halal now.

What do people think about schools and government institutions serving halal as standard? That was the real issue this thread was trying to address.

Sorry sue still no clearer? Care to try again?

Tom

[Sue]

Thomas Micklewright Wrote:

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>

> Sorry sue still no clearer? Care to try again?

> Tom

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Here's my post again. Does anybody else not understand it?

OK I've had several glasses of red, but I just want to say, if people didn't eat meat, then there would be very few

cows, sheep, pigs or hens in the countryside, if any. At least they have a life, even if a fairly short one.

And I personally think battery farming is a load more cruel than animals getting their throats slit.

I used to live on an organic farm. Strange as it may seem, the farmers really cared for their animals, and their welfare, even though they were going off to be slaughtered at the end of the day.

I was a vegetarian once. Now I'm not. But I would never knowingly eat animals who had spent their lives in a cruel environment.

[Annette Curtain]

It's VERY bold Sue.

[Huguenot]

The first place to start is that meat can be both halal and meet western abbatoir standards.

Thomas is deliberately trying to misrepresent the halal slaughter process as being more cruel or distressing than 'western' methods. It is simply not true. An animal is quite indifferent to the way it is terminated once it has been stunned, and cutting the throat is a perfectly well established western practice.

The only real difference between halal and western abbatoirs is that someone has 'blessed' the meat. Hardly a threat to animal welfare.

Thomas has also made a couple of sweeping claims there about most take-aways being halal, and halal becoming standard in schools and government institutions that deserve to be backed up by evidence.

In fact only Dominos pizza claim to sell majority halal meat, and most of the rest sell only a tiny fraction or none at all.

The majority of halal meat in the UK is actually New Zealand lamb - New Zealand is hardly known for it's aggressive posture in taking down western civilizations, religious terror and underming our cultural heritage. It simply has an abbatoir practice of stunning animals before cutting their throats.

Evidence for a halal takeover does not include racist or xenophobic articles from the Daily Mail talking about 'secret' halal meat. The predominant target for these articles is people who like to believe that foreigners and those of differing religions are somehow less genetically evolved, are more like animals, less human than white christians. I trust that no-one on this forum is so prejudiced to accept this.

Frankly it's going to get put down to more of Thomas' manipulation and bullshit that don't merit a response.

In this one Thomas has also tried to key into people's religious and racial anxieties to get his way - a particularly dirty approach.

The fact is that Thomas continues to try and single out particlar practices that he thinks might get an edge in a cynical and disingenuous practice to force other people to live by his rules.

[Moos]

Thomas, people have tried to address your discussion point by offering points of view on different standards of slaughter and animal welfare - you have dismissed them with contempt because an animal is still being raised to be killed and eaten. That being your stance, what on earth would be the point of discussing halal or kosher meat practices with you? You appear to believe that there is no acceptable animal slaughter for meat. We could spend weeks going back and forth, and you would only respond 'Wrong -none of the above'.

[Jah Lush]

What Hugenot and Moos said. Sorry, being lazy. Feck! I could murder a kebab.

[Tarot]

StraferJack Wrote:

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> Yes, it took this thread to make tarot look a bit

> thick. Prior to this thread, tarot has been a

> model of fair thought and progressive thinking

>

> Yknow, just as you would expect from someone named

> after blind superstitious belief

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Still havent revealed yourself Sean.

[StraferJack]

I think it has been confirmed in more than one occasion that I used to post as seanmachabhann tarot. So you're incorrect as well as bizarre in the fact that that has nothing to do with the discussion. But whatever keeps you happy

I'll happily explain why I no longer post under that name if you like but I doubt anyone cares.

[katie1997]

It was too difficult to spell? ;-)

[StraferJack]

Nah. I figured if mike paelelalalalalalallahus can manage his name, spelling isn't so bad

[Tarot]

Go on then explain.

[Annette Curtain]

I think really Thomas is trying it all out.

A bit like being a Mod or a Skinhead way back when.

You know, you get the outfits, pose about a bit, say what others say.

I think he's feeling his way as he goes along, copying the hardcore AR/AV lot verbatim.

A kind of 'that sounds about right' stance but without the personal or intellectual vigour to really challenge the thought police that frequent those groups.

As TM said himself, it was the Jamie Oliver programme on battery/farmed chicken gassing that put him off.

If it took a TV chef to give him a reality check, really, was he that naive before that?

He must have had a fairly sheltered upbringing too, my kids have known how animals are slaughtered for ages and the eldest isn't even a teenager yet. And as a child I used to sit on the church wall watching the pigs be slaughtered on a Sunday morning. It's what happens in the country side.

Honest question Thomas, roughly how old are you ?

NETTE

[Peckhamgatecrasher]

On a Sunday? Shame on you. Two Hail Marys.

[Huguenot]

We used to watch chickens getting slotted all the time, but I only ever saw one pig getting the chop and it was very messy.

We ate it later as a pig roast which is about as close as you can get to seeing where your food comes from.

Pigs, as everyone knows I'm sure, aren't halal. There's actually a good reason for this (rather than just being mumbo jumbo). Biologically pigs are one of the closest beasties to humans, and this means that many of the parasites that live in or on pigs are very dangerous to humans.

Back in the day more folks were dying of pig related diseases and infections that any other meat. The banning of pork from the diet was thus an early food hygeine policy being enshrined within the political framework of the day - religious dogma.

[HAL9000]

That hypothesis doesn't explain why almost all ancient peoples ate pork with virtually no evidence of ill effects?

The Judaeo-religious (i.e. halal/kosher) prohibition may have been introduced as a reaction to the fact that the Roman legion that sacked Jerusalem in 70 CE featured a pig or hog on its standard and because a later Emperor raised a marble statue of a pig in the Temple precincts to commemorate the event.

This hypothesis neatly explains why pig bones are found throughout the archaeological strata associated with ancient Palestine and at sites like Masada where fanatically observant Jews are supposed to have committed mass suicide rather than surrender to the Romans in 76 CE.

[Huguenot]

"That hypothesis doesn't explain why almost all ancient peoples ate pork with virtually no evidence of ill effects?"

Not sure what your source is for that? That's a big claim from ancient medical records.

Assuming it's right, I guess that would depend upron the prognosis and the quality of those records wouldn't it?

The most prevalent infection was trichinosis - from a parasitic roundworm that attacks the central nervious system. It wouldn't have left skeletal evidence, but it would have been dramatic viewing with the collapse of muscle co-ordination and easy to draw contextual conclusions that it was happening disproportionately amongst pork eaters.

Your theory regarding pigs as symbols of colonial armies doesn't really explain why pork should be unpopular in many other areas of the world.

[mockney piers]

You're not much cop at this history malarkey are you HAL.

Entire people have religious proscription due to flag of pig vs flag of pig raised symbolically to poke finger in eye of people who have religious proscription.

Pretty obvious which of those two survives occam's razor.

The other thing to keep in mind when looking at history is that the people in question were people, not ideas, it's always good to remember that (masada being a classic case in point where they myth superceded the facts on the ground). For instance I have actually met christians who have had sex before marriage...weird I know but it's true.

The proscription in question predates the romans by quite some margin in fact predates the crystalisation of jewish identity. Whilst we can never know its origins for sure, huguenot's hypothesis is at the very least plausible and your argument weak.

For instance the government is about to ban smoking in cars. In thousands of years time when people find cigarettes in car ash-trays will they decide it wasn't banned, perhaps it was made law as a reaction to that damned frenchie Magritte? We know that pork can be eaten without ill effects, that doesn't detract from the fact that pork, like shellfish, is more susceptible to food poisoning and hence the most likely reason why some nanny state priest of the day decided to enshrine it in law.

I hate you for making me come out of retirement to nit-pick but I couldn't let such misinformation of interest to noone but you me and huges go. That says more about me than it does you ;)

[HAL9000]

Touch?! I hate you, Hugo and the other musketeer for making me come back to deny posting under another name after having successfully broken the EDF habit for almost six months :)

So, how do you guys explain how ancient Israel, Judah and especially Masada became an archaeological bone yard for butchered pigs?

I guess neither of you have read Josephus?

[mockney piers]

My bet? People eating pigs.

Either the defenders or the attackers or indeed someone else entirely.

Perhaps the romans wanted to defile the remains of those that stood up to them as a gesture; typically roman behaviour but purest specualtion.

Archeology is a cruel science.

[Annette Curtain]

http://www.dreamstime.com/pig-smoking-cigarette-thumb17050981.jpg

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