Peoples vote march - 20 October

[civilservant]

uncleglen Wrote:

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> How many in 'that' 700,000 were voters in the > referendum?

> So you think it's ok to waste hours of police time marching AGAINST democracy

> How many Remain voters changed to Leave after they witnessed the arrogant and puerile behaviour of Barmier et al?

you mean 'BarNier' don't you?

either a lack of language ability or Sun-style puerile name-calling, neither is a good look, UG

regarding waste of police time, i have never seen a more peaceful and good-natured march, and i've been on a few since 2003, alas!

police were only needed (and visible) to separate the marchers from ugly little knots of Leavers e.g. outside the Red Lion on whitehall where EDL-ers typically offer up provocation

as for Remain moving to Leave, all the evidence points to net flows going the other way

but i know from previous discussions that you never let the evidence stand in the way of a good argument - that's typical of leavers, but when even an expensively-educated man like Boris Johnson does it, what hope for the rest of us?

but you KNOW it's true - so that's why people like you and Nigel Farage (another expensively-educated rascal who's greatly benefited personally from the EU 'gravy-train') worry about a second vote - some actual facts about the impact of leaving might decisively swing it the other way

but we might never know, might we...

[rendelharris]

uncleglen Wrote:

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> How many in 'that' 700,000 were voters in the

> referendum?

> So you think it's ok to waste hours of police time

> marching AGAINST democracy

> How many Remain voters changed to Leave after they

> witnessed the arrogant and puerile behaviour of

> Barmier et al?

1. Virtually every one, one would imagine - who would be committed enough to go on a march but not bother to vote?

2. Democracy? Oh you mean the unnecessary referendum won by an illegally-funded campaign with Russian interference? Most thinking people would recognise the right to peaceful protest as a cornerstone of democracy. The argument that people should not march because it "wastes hours of police time" is of course so pathetic it doesn't need addressing.

3. Virtually none I should imagine. For someone not to fall for the Leave lies of the land of milk and honey waiting for us post-referendum, but to change their opinion when they see what a farcical fuckup the whole thing has become, they would have to be as stupid as...now, who can I think of...

Sadly the whole sorry affair will end up with us leaving. But it's nice to see people like you squirming and squealing about democracy (your version of course, in which presumably Muslims, Jews and non-whites wouldn't get a vote); it shows all too clearly that even you are aware that Leave won a freak vote, in highly dubious circumstances, and that the result in no way reflects the opinions of the British people today, and you're scared shitless your grubby little moment when all your hatred and bile is being legitimised in legislation will be taken away.

[keano77]

Get out of bed on the wrong side this morning Rendel?

Tell you what, let?s play a game that gives me hours of fun - it might cheer you up.

Google People?s Vote March and look at the hundreds of pictures from newspapers, TV and agencies etc for the marches in the summer, at the Labour Party Conference and yesterday?s well-attended turnout. Have a magnifying glass to hand.

The game is called ?spot the non-white face?

I spotted about half a dozen non-white faces yesterday which was an improvement on the previous two.

What conclusions can we draw from this?

[Jenny1]

keano77 Wrote:

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> What conclusions can we draw from this?

What conclusions do you yourself draw from this keano77. I'd be very interested to know.

[rendelharris]

keano77 Wrote:

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> The game is called ?spot the non-white face?

>

> I spotted about half a dozen non-white faces

> yesterday which was an improvement on the previous

> two.

>

> What conclusions can we draw from this?

I don't know, what? If you're trying to claim that Remain is only a white middle-class movement, you're on pretty dubious ground - BAME voters were overwhelmingly anti-brexit to the tune of roughly 70-30.

[JoeLeg]

keano77 Wrote:

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> Get out of bed on the wrong side this morning

> Rendel?

What, because he disagrees with a racist? Do you not see a problem with Uncleglen?s beliefs? Should they not be challenged?

>

> Tell you what, let?s play a game that gives me

> hours of fun - it might cheer you up.

Ah, sarcasm, nice.

>

> Google People?s Vote March and look at the

> hundreds of pictures from newspapers, TV and

> agencies etc for the marches in the summer, at the

> Labour Party Conference and yesterday?s

> well-attended turnout. Have a magnifying glass to

> hand.

>

> The game is called ?spot the non-white face?

>

> I spotted about half a dozen non-white faces

> yesterday which was an improvement on the previous

> two.

>

> What conclusions can we draw from this?

Keano mate, if I?m honest I appreciate your counterpoints to the prevailing opinions here, because as I?ve always said I like to hear opposing views.

What I don?t like is stuff that veers into morally dubious territory, and your post does just that.

What exactly is your point? That because - in your view - Remain is an overwhelmingly white cause it can?t be given credence?

Are you genuinely saying that white middle class people have less right to be heard than others? That they are worth less, somehow, because of the colour of their skin?

Seriously, what is your point here?

[keano77]

JoeLeg said:

?...What I don?t like is stuff that veers into morally dubious territory, and your post does just that...?

JoeLeg, you can over analyse what was a factual statement by me.

We can?t draw any firm conclusions from the pictures because we don?t know who these people were so I can?t answer Jenny1?s question. And (see what I?ve done there Rendel) as Rendel says there will be many BAME people who support a People?s Vote.

All we can say, to use a trendy Americanism, is the ?optics? aren?t doing the second vote cause any favours.

What intrigues me, is what do the marchers think they would be voting on? What will be the questions? Will it be binary or will there be three or four questions? What if it?s a no-deal.

I presume they think one of the questions will be to stay in the EU. But many leavers would vote against a ?Brino? deal but not to stay in the EU.

We could all be arguing about the questions for a second vote for years and few people will be happy with the result.

[civilservant]

keano77, are you saying 'Remain' is a 'white' thing? quite wrong, and why do YOU feel entitled to play the race card?

the point is that a second vote allows for a better formulation of the question or questions , and it also gives people a chance to decide on the basis of the emerging info about the real impacts of leaving

the first vote was tainted by political side-taking, scaremongering and lies (by both sides, though one more than the other)

of course it could go either way, but at least it would (one hopes) be a more rational and informed decision than the last one, and hence in the whole country's interests, black or white, north or south, rich or poor

what's wrong with all that? i genuinely want to know

[keano77]

What if the vote were 52% remain and 48% leave? Would such a slim majority be acceptable or definitive and settle the question once and for all?

What percentage would be acceptable - 55-45, 60-40, 70-30?

If Remain ?won? would the score be 1-1 and we?d need the best out of three?

It?s a can of worms civilservant and begs the question when is a vote not a vote?

[rendelharris]

keano77 Wrote:

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> What if the vote were 52% remain and 48% leave?

> Would such a slim majority be acceptable or

> definitive and settle the question once and for

> all?

Not as far as Nigel Farage was concerned: "In a 52-48 referendum [for Remain] this would be unfinished business by a long way. There could be unstoppable demand for a second vote." Oddly he seems to have changed his tune since then.

There was no obligation on the part of the legislature to call a referendum (nor to take the result as binding, as it happens), it was a voluntary act on their part. Why, therefore, would it be wrong for them to do the same again? We vote for a government every five years, we see how they do, and if they're rubbish we (hopefully) vote them out. But in a referendum which will arguably have a greater effect, for a longer time, on the fortunes of our country than any change of government, we can't have a confirmatory vote on the terms and conditions (none of which were known at the time of the first vote?). You and your fellow Leavers, Keano, are continually saying that leave is the will of the people - well what are you afraid of then? If it's the will of the people we can just confirm that with a second vote once the full details of the deal are revealed and off we go. Not worried that the will of the people might have changed, are you?

[JoeLeg]

Keano, I posted up a really angry response to this after trying to stay calm, and I've deleted it and replaced it with this.

You bought up the race issue, then pretended you didn't. I find that, and you, utterly despicable. There was no need for that whatsoever, and you've been asked twice to explain it, by different posters, and twice you've just ignored them.

That speaks volumes about you. I have no intention in engaging in further discussion with someone who treats race relations with such carelessness.

[Captain Marvel]

Christ Joe, take a chill pill

[rendelharris]

Captain Marvel Wrote:

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> Christ Joe, take a chill pill

It's kind of serious when people start bringing race into issues (without any seeming justification), people will (rightly) get upset.

[JoeLeg]

Captain Marvel Wrote:

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> Christ Joe, take a chill pill

I?m chilled now. But somethings need to be said. Making this a racial issue is unacceptable.

[keano77]

Absolutely pathetic. Making accusations of racism has become the refuge of scoundrels.

[rendelharris]

keano77 Wrote:

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> Absolutely pathetic. Making accusations of racism

> has become the refuge of scoundrels.

But why did you feel the need to draw attention to the racial profile of the marchers? You've been asked a number of times why you did this and have yet to offer any explanation.

[JoeLeg]

keano77 Wrote:

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> Absolutely pathetic. Making accusations of racism

> has become the refuge of scoundrels.

Don?t start what you can?t finish, snowflake.

And you DID start it. Do you need me to remind you of how you bought up the issue of the protesters ethnicity and then avoided all questions about its relevance?

[keano77]

What on Earth is wrong with both of you (and civilservant) We?ve had all the crowing and PR hype, what great turn outs, evidence of a groundswell that the British people have changed their minds etc.

Unfortunately, as embarrassing as you may find this, the pictures of those who participated in the marches do not reflect the multicultural nature of Britain. Fact. Not my fault. There may be many pictures that I haven?t seen that are more balanced but I haven?t seen them in the papers, on TV or on Google images.

Why is it racist to question the seemingly unrepresentative nature of the public record of the marches?

Rhetorical question - I don?t expect any sensible answers

[rendelharris]

You, keano, are the one who raised the question of race. BAME people in this country voted 70-30 to remain. You clearly are attempting to push a rather silly "it's only white middle classes who are complaining" agenda. If that's what you believe, in the face of clear evidence to the contrary, good luck to you, but you really shouldn't be surprised if you get called on it.

[Jenny1]

keano77 Wrote:

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> We can?t draw any firm conclusions from the

> pictures because we don?t know who these people

> were so I can?t answer Jenny1?s question.

Then why raise the issue and ask others what conclusions they drew from it?

[JoeLeg]

keano77 Wrote:

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> What on Earth is wrong with both of you (and

> civilservant) We?ve had all the crowing and PR

> hype, what great turn outs, evidence of a

> groundswell that the British people have changed

> their minds etc.

>

> Unfortunately, as embarrassing as you may find

> this, the pictures of those who participated in

> the marches do not reflect the multicultural

> nature of Britain. Fact. Not my fault. There may

> be many pictures that I haven?t seen that are more

> balanced but I haven?t seen them in the papers, on

> TV or on Google images.

>

> Why is it racist to question the seemingly

> unrepresentative nature of the public record of

> the marches?

>

> Rhetorical question - I don?t expect any sensible

> answers

Well, given that you asked a stupid question I suppose it's only realistic that you got what you see as stupid answers.

Seriously though, I don't know what you were thinking...I frequent other forums which are far more supportive of Brexit and scathing off the People's March, and amid all the abuse I've seen levelled at it today you are the only person to bring ethnicity into it. Why on earth should there be a requirement that any protest group be formed of an ethnically diverse/representative selection of people I don't know.

Certainly I don't see much diversity in most Leave rallies, but perhaps that's ok by you.

[keano77]

You might be right Rendel about the BAME support for a second vote but your statistics are not reflected in the pictures of the people who marched in the summer, in Liverpool or yesterday.

[rendelharris]

keano77 Wrote:

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> You might be right Rendel about the BAME support

> for a second vote but your statistics are not

> reflected in the pictures of the people who

> marched in the summer, in Liverpool or yesterday.

Well it's not so much I may be right as I am right - a quick Google will confirm this for you. JL's point is valid, is it not - any pro-Brexit events are even "whiter". The ethnic composition of any protest is not a valid reason to doubt its sincerity or popularity, I'm still baffled as to why you thought it should be raised.

[keano77]

JoeLeg,

if it doesn?t look like a duck, doesn?t swim like a duck and doesn?t quack like a duck maybe it ain?t a duck

(Apologies to ducks in case I?m guilty of duckism/fowlism/poultry-ism)

[JoeLeg]

Keano, whatever mate...