Making bottles up in advance question

[Strawbs]

Is that true that it kills off the nutrients??? Where does it say that.. I thought it said use the water within 30 mins of boiling so depending on what my screaming baby is doing I either do it right away is water and powder or anywhere up to 10-15 after I boil kettle.. So does that mean that the feed I just made now and put in fridge for his 6am feed which I did immediately after the kettle boiled has no nutrients?

Can you point me in the direction please of where it says this so I can do a bit of research?

Thanks

[Fuschia]

I don't think that's true either ... The reason why in this country actual

Boiling water isn't recommended is mostly to do with the scalding rusk

For the person

Preparing the feed I think

If the feed was made with actual

Water on the boil then the proteins in they'll

Might be affected

I did read the whole detailed very long research into the bacteria and the optimal temps upon which the advice is based

Helena, I take this all so seriously because my assistants grand daughter was very seriously ill in intensive care at a few weeks old and the cause was isolated to contamination of the milk

Since then I have been very conscious of any press reports of contaminated milk ... Although the incidence is rare (1 in 100,000) that compares with listeria in pregnant women at 12 in 100,000

I don't know many women who disregard the advice re duet in

Pregnancy

I think we all appreciate that the incidence us low but the effects are very serious, hence the important advice te food safety

I just can't help saying something, when

People say 'I did it this way and it was fine'

Because that rather misses the point

In

Belgium

The family of a baby that died sued the Formula company

But lost because they were supposed to

Know baby milk isn't sterile

But I am

Not so sure everybody does fully appreciate that

[Mathilda]

Strawbs - the NHS leaflet that emza links to above doesn't mention anything about killing off nutrients and says boil kettle and leave no longer than 30 mins - I think making straight away is fine.

[Monkey]

Got info from hubby who says he does not remember where he read it. Maybe it's bs.

[Fuschia]

In the us I think there is advice to make formula up with boiling water but the formula manufacturers dispute it for that reason

I think we discussed this before. Seem te remember saffron had the definitive answer.

Anyway, just off the boil is certainly fine! Better hotter than 70 degrees than cooler

[Fuschia]

http://www.milkfacts.info/Milk%20Composition/Protein.htm

Much higher temps than boiling are needed to

Affect the nutritional

Properties of milk protein (whey)

[Strawbs]

Without wanting to reopen th debate too much Just had a very odd call with the SMa helpline (formula).. I called because the stay down formula gets very clumpy and it says on tin it thickens in their tummy and not the bottle which obviously was wrong due o the clumps.. They said due to it being a medicinal powder it should be made up in cold water!!! She said I should boil the water, cool the bottle immediately in I've water, put bottle in fridge (do 4 at a time) then take out an hour before feed, put powder in, shake, and then leave to reach room temp naturally..

When I asked about the bacteria factor she said it was absolutely fine as it was a medicinal powder..

Does this not sound totally bonkers??? Should I believe them???

Xxx

[Fuschia]

I had heard that some of the anti reflux formulas couldn't be made with hot water

But unless

By 'medicinal' she means 'sterile' then I don't see how the bacteria risk is eliminated in her suggestion ...

Bit scary when even those advising on formula prep don't grasp the implications of not sticking to the 70 degree rule

[Saffron]

Fuschia Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I had heard that some of the anti reflux formulas

> couldn't be made with hot water

>

> But unless

> By 'medicinal' she means 'sterile' then I don't

> see how the bacteria risk is eliminated in her

> suggestion ...

>

> Bit scary when even those advising on formula prep

> don't grasp the implications of not sticking to

> the 70 degree rule

If the formula powder is packaged and then irradiated or autoclaved at an appropriate temperature, then it should be "sterile" until opened. If carefully handled and stored after opening, then it should remain safe. However, very few of the things that we think of as sterile in laymen's terms are truly sterile in laboratory terms. It may be that for legal reasons the company can call its product medicinal, but not sterile, even though basically it is sterile. Just a guess.

Coincidentally, why would liquid formulas be at less of a risk of contamination than powders? Are they routinely autoclaved or irradiated or something? And powders aren't? If so, why not? Or is it that powders are more likely to be contaminated in the home after opening, b/c they come in larger portions?

[Belle]

I think poss the latter Saffron? even the litre cartons I somehow think of as 'safer' because they're stored in the fridge and must be used within 48 hrs. thing is for eg with powder you are meant to used a clean knife to level off scoops etc, so can imagine it's being repeatedly exposed in the week or so a tin is on the go. Off to check nutramigen website now...

[Saffron]

Fuschia Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> In the us I think there is advice to make formula

> up with boiling water but the formula

> manufacturers dispute it for that reason

>

> I think we discussed this before. Seem te remember

> saffron had the definitive answer.

>

Blimey, did I? Well there's another piece of my short-term memory gone. This is a very interesting thread b/c there are so many different hypotheses tangled up around one subject. Also, the fact that there are so very few reported cases of formula contamination makes it difficult to study. What we can assess are the basic scientific priciples about microbes and food safety.

Common sense tells us that most of the microbes that infect humans will not survive either very cold or very hot temps, which is why either freezing or boiling are two good methods to acheive sterility (or at least relative sterility). This is b/c these microbes are evolved to thrive at ambient and/or body temperature. Furthermore, microbes which do actually thrive at extreme temps don't do well at ambient/body temp, so we don't generally worry about being infected by them. (Nature probably has a few very rare and strange exceptions to this.)

Common sense also tells us that most of the microbes that infect humans will not survive extremes of pH or electrolyte concentrations beyond those generally found in the body. This is why chlorine or other chemicals are commonly used for sterilising objects, and salt/sugar are commonly used as food preservatives.

Now apply these principles to water and the cleaning of baby bottles. It used to be common practice always to sterilise baby bottles & teats by boiling/bleaching etc. This was b/c tap water itself was known to be a source of infections (think: cholera in Victorian England). It is now recognized that modern tap water in the Western world is generally safe, and that combined with modern detergents like household washing-up liquid (or the use of dishwashers), bottles no longer need to be sterilised. It is enough to wash them in hot water and soap. Many drs are still advising parents to sterilise bottles b/c they have so long been in the practice of doing so. The advice is overcautious, but well-meaning.

Ah, but there's still the problem of the water itself, no? If you're going to give Baby water in any form, it needs to be clean. That means relatively sterile, but also free from excesses of minerals/metals/etc. So you can filter-out impurities, and boil-out the microbes. Ding. We've arrived at our magical solution: cooled, boiled water.

BUT, if you add anything else --like formula powder-- to the water, then you run the risk of re-introducing contamination to the solution.

And here I think we hit the crux of the argument.

Powdered solutions (similar to other processed food-stuffs) should in theory be sterile after undergoing processing and packaging. But remember, it's *relative* sterility we're talking about, not absolute sterility (which doesn't really exist outside lab conditions). So a few rare and hardy microbes might survive the processing action, or "normal" microbes might be accidentally re-introduced during processing. Even a relatively sterile container of powder is at risk of contamination once opened by the consumer.

So, the question is how to quickly and safely sterilise the powder at 2:47am, with a bawling baby hanging off your arm, while your partner blissfully snores away in the other room, nevermind the fact that you just nearly gave yourself a heart attack in the dark by stepping on a plush teddy which you mistook for the cat... who is also blissfully snoring away in the other room.

If you boiled the kettle and immediately poured the hot water onto the powder, you'd be very likely to kill off any nasty microbes therein (and you won't affect the nutritional quality of the milk by doing so). Leave a little space to add cold water (perhaps keep some cold boiled water in the refrigerator?), and you can arrive at a drinkable temperature very quickly.

If you leave the boiled water in the kettle to cool for 20 min, you'll reduce the risk (marginally) of scalding youself when fumbling for bottles in the semi-darkness. Equally, you'll reduce the effectiveness (marginally) of the water to kill off nasties. And you might still have to add some cold water for it to be drinkable. You'd also have to listen to Baby screaming for 20 min, while you consider throwing yourself down the stairs.

If you premade bottles of formula by adding boiling water to powder, then immediately capped and refrigerated them, they would be very unlikely to yield significant if any bacterial growth over the course of a few hours. You could re-heat them quickly in a bottle warmer.

You could use variations on these themes if you have to make up powder feeds away from home.

Of course don't forget that the most contaminated thing in the kitchen is probably your own hands, so don't forget to wash them. And, would it be totally wacky to suggest keeping formula powder in the refrigerator once opened? Just a thought.

I haven't read any of the official guidelines from food agencies or the formula companies given on this thread. I'm just writting from my own knowledge of microbes and microbial growth. You can follow the logic for yourself and take it, or leave it. Or feel free to poke holes in it. :)

[helena handbasket]

Awesome post!

[Saffron]

Nah, I just chalk it up to a vicious round of insomnia! ;-)

[Moos]

Absolutely brilliant post. Intelligence, wit and common sense applied without an agenda? It'll never catch on ;-)

btw, I am very very happy that my formula days are behind me but I used the make-it-with-boiling-water-immediately-stick-in-fridge-and-carefully-rewarm method.

[AnyaJoeli]

It's really useful reading all this info, I've always found various guidelines a bit confusing about making in advance

[Convex]

Hi,

I was making a bottle this morning and remembered this thread and how helpful I found it. So i thought I'd bump it in case any formula feeding parents are struggling with the wait-for-20mins thing.

I use a method copied from a friend, which is keeping a bottle of cooled boiled water ready and using a combo of boiling water (from kettle or thermos) and cooled boiled water to get the right temp.

I am thinking of switching to the premake-and-keep-in-fridge method though. Every second counts for that morning feed!

[midivydale]

I use this method as well especially at night (the lactation consultant we saw in the early days recommended it).

[lucyA1308]

I am getting fed up with my little one's 2 hourly need for feeds ( a fairly recent habbit, but one which I realise is not going away anytime soon, unless I do something about it)so I am also trying to work this one out.

I have been quite lazy about bottle feeds, and although she will take them, it is so much easier with the boob. (and cosy for her too, which is half the problem)

I do remember that for my older daughter we had an Avent bottle bag, which was insulated, so if you made up a bottle at about 11.30ish (an average bed time) then it might stay warm enough until 3.00am.