Too many people burning wood in Dulwich - Southwark needs to enforce Clean Air Act

[pinkladybird]

Sick of my house smelling of woodsmoke and my chest geting tight. The poor lady above me has early stage lung disease. I couldn't work out where the smoke was coming from and then found it was a house across the road. I politely asked her to stop and told her about my chest and my neighbours lung disease. I let her know it is a smoke control area. She got angry and said (shouted) 'It is not illegal and never will be' and told me to call the council. She has been burning regularly ever since - dark smoke coming from her chimney making the whole area stink. She is a wealthy lady (can see a plush house through the window) - not exactly burning out of need of heat. How can anyone possibly be so incredibly selfish!

I'm so fed up I'm putting in a complaint to Southwark Council asking them to do their duty and raise awareness of and enforce the clean air act. I asked them before and they said that there does not seem to be a problem as they only received 7 complaints of breaching of the clean air act last year! If anyone feels the same as me please let Southwark Council know as otherwise they will never do anything and it will only get worse.

[siousxiesue]

Local councillors?

[pinkladybird]

Yes i will try them

[James Barber]

You can report noise and antisocial behaviours -which surely what you've described is -https://www.southwark.gov.uk/noise-and-antisocial-behaviour/antisocial-and-threatening-behaviour

020 7525 5777

And yes, the whole of Southwark is in a Smoke Free Zone. I believe your neighbour can use an open fire IF they have smoke free coal.

[pinkladybird]

Unfortunately I have had another neighbour with an open fire and contacted the Noise and nuisance team. They appeared to confuse the Clean Air Act with Statutory Nuisance laws - these are two different things and require different evidence. I spoke to two officers on the phone and both said they had not dealt with a clean air act case before. One was surprised I was complaining about a fire in a fireplace - and not outside (as they usually deal with). I just gave up.

Of the 7 cases last year none were found to be substantiated. I am guessing it is because they were dealt with under statutory nuisance law. This time I will try the environmental protection team and hope they are better informed.

[bels123]

Thanks for raising and pursuing pinkladybird. Whilst it might be tempting to have an open fire or another log on the wood burner at this time of year, unfortunately it?s significantly contributing to the poor air quality locally.

?Domestic wood burning is the largest single source of PM2.5. According to one analysis of government data, it produces more than twice as much as all road traffic. While concerns about diesel vehicles focus largely on the nitrogen dioxide they produce, the evidence tying particulates to death and disease is even more powerful.?

https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2018/feb/22/wood-diesel-indoor-stoves-cities-pollution

[gabys1st]

My understanding is that burning seasoned/dried wood is OK.

[pinkladybird]

Yes, it's really concerning me.

In the winter, wood burning contributes 25-30% of london's Particulate matter. It's probably an even higher proportion of peoples intake if they live in high wood-burning areas like Dulwich.

It's hard to know what to do to change anything - but I just think that if only people knew how much pollution they were producing they would stop. Unfortunately the data isn't really out there - you have to look for it.

I've just learnt that even the cleanest latest wood burning stoves (Ecodesign) give off the same amount of particulates as 15 cars or 6 lorries (minute for minute)! Open fires give off significantly more. So my quiet street might as well be a very busy main one just because of a few people.

'Few people who install wood stoves are likely to understand that a single log-burning stove permitted in smokeless zones emits more PM2.5 per year than 1,000 petrol cars and has estimated health costs in urban areas of thousands of pounds per year.' https://www.bmj.com/content/350/bmj.h2757/rr-1

[pinkladybird]

gabys1st you can't legally burn anything on an open fire other than smokeless coal. No type of wood no matter how dry.

But please consider that smokeless coal gives off 5g of particulates an hour. A modern diesel car gives off (on average) 0.2. You are adding the equivalent of around 25 cars worth of pollution every hour! 'Smokeless' is not pollutionless.

So even if it is legal it is not really moral.

Plenty of really realistic gas 'open fires'. I was surprised to find the one in the EDT is gas.

[pinkladybird]

Just putting a link to where I got the data from for the amount of particulate emissions per hour -

It is (grams per hour with equivalent given in number of modern diesel cars):

Open fires with wood (varies so hard to get figure): 5g/h (lab conditions)-25g/h (moist). Average 10g/h = 50 cars

Defra Exempt Wood burning Stove: 6.7 g/h = 30 cars

New Ecoready Wood burning Stove: 3 g/h = 15 cars

Modern Lorry: 0.5 g/h

Diesel car (2009 or later: 0.2g/h

Air quality expert group, University of Leciester

http://www.iapsc.org.uk/assets/document/0618_P_Monks_Jun2018.pdf

Note that insanely high as the stove values are, they could well be even worse:

'Even modern stoves described as ?low emission? are highly polluting. And in an echo of the diesel car emissions scandal, measurements during actual use in homes show that the stoves produce more pollution than lab tests suggest.'

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2119595-wood-burners-london-air-pollution-is-just-tip-of-the-iceberg/

[mrwb]

Relevant info is here I think

https://www.london.gov.uk/what-we-do/environment/pollution-and-air-quality/guidance-wood-burning-stoves-london

Which part of ED is this taking place in?

[kford]

It's all here. You CAN burn wood, just properly seasoned wood. The stuff from garage forecourts is not seasoned.

https://www.london.gov.uk/what-we-do/environment/pollution-and-air-quality/guidance-wood-burning-stoves-london

[AbDabs]

kford Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> It's all here. You CAN burn wood, just properly

> seasoned wood. The stuff from garage forecourts is

> not seasoned.

>

> https://www.london.gov.uk/what-we-do/environment/p

> ollution-and-air-quality/guidance-wood-burning-sto

> ves-london

I think it's worth clarifying for anyone who doesn't open that link that you can burn seasoned wood but only in a wood burner.

If you have an open fireplace you can only burn smokeless fuel.

[pinkladybird]

kford, I didn't say you couldn't burn wood. I said 'you can't legally burn anything on an open fire other than smokeless coal.' I was referring to an open fire.

As has been pointed out, you can burn seasoned wood but it should be in a (Defra-approved) wood burner.

[pinkladybird]

mrwb the specific incident described takes place near North Cross road. However, I think I can deal with that now. I am more concerned about the extent of wood burning that occurs generally throughout Dulwich.

Legally in a burner or illegally in an open fire, dry and seasoned or moist, it is all so polluting.

[uncleglen]

The OP says

" I asked them before and they said that there does not seem to be a problem as they only received 7 complaints of breaching of the clean air act last year!"

I was under the impression that there are monitoring stations around London since the 'powers that be' are forever going on about us breaching EU rules...and then WE have to pay the EU a fine for doing it.

So if London is annually breaching the EU levels....how come Southwark is passing the buck on to the residents to do what should be THEIR job!

[rendelharris]

uncleglen Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> The OP says

> " I asked them before and they said that there

> does not seem to be a problem as they only

> received 7 complaints of breaching of the clean

> air act last year!"

> I was under the impression that there are

> monitoring stations around London since the

> 'powers that be' are forever going on about us

> breaching EU rules...and then WE have to pay the

> EU a fine for doing it.

> So if London is annually breaching the EU

> levels....how come Southwark is passing the buck

> on to the residents to do what should be THEIR

> job!

Could a sane person provide a translation of what this means, please?

[Nigello]

It needs a national law to prevent fuel being sold that isn't kiln dried or seasoned. Crap wood = crap air. Try miscanthus if you're keen to reduce the impact on the environment. https://www.terravesta.com/shop/#products

[pinkladybird]

Nigello, seasoned wood STILL causes crap air. Less crap then moist wood but still crap!

The figures below are for burning SEASONED wood in ideal laboratory conditions.

Defra Exempt Wood burning Stove: 6.7 g/h = 30 cars worth

New Ecoready Wood burning Stove: 3 g/h = 15 cars worth

Those figures are shocking! Wood burning shouldn't be allowed in London. 1 house burning 1 defra stove for 1 hour = 30 cars driving up and down the road.

[yeknomyeknom]

I agree that the burning of fuel in homes is bad for the environment and should be avoided. I also think that the pollution caused by driving cars as stated above is to be avoided. Do the people on here complaining about the pollution from fires also avoid driving a car (or lorry 🙂).

[healey]

pinkladybird Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Nigello, seasoned wood STILL causes crap air. Less

> crap then moist wood but still crap!

>

> The figures below are for burning SEASONED wood in

> ideal laboratory conditions.

>

> Defra Exempt Wood burning Stove: 6.7 g/h = 30 cars

> worth

> New Ecoready Wood burning Stove: 3 g/h = 15 cars

> worth

>

> Those figures are shocking! Wood burning shouldn't

> be allowed in London. 1 house burning 1 defra

> stove for 1 hour = 30 cars driving up and down the

> road

Ultimately as long as they are using seasoned wood in a burner they are within their rights. Nothing you can do.

[intexasatthe moment]

There is something that can be done - educate and inform ppl that although within the law their actions have damaging consequences .

I think the OP is doing this .

[Frenchy]

Unfortunately when it comes to 'wanting things that they like? vs ?potential consequences to others somewhere down the line? humans have a poor track record - and one which is unlikely to change. You?re better off finding more effective ways to manage such vices than appealing to personal ethics. (How is that ?war on drugs? going these days anyway?). You?re better off looking to a future where a woodburner is capable of producing virtually no pollutants at all than hoping that one day ?Man Him No Like Fire'.

Fortunately woodburning comes with its own bespoke limitation system already built-in: doing a lot of it requires a logistical exercise (acquiring it, storing it, moving it, lighting it, cleaning the appliance)

which will put most people off - beyond relatively occasional use. No surprise that the worst offending day for woodburning is Christmas Day, when the most people can be arsed.

It has instant appeal but statements such as ?one stove = x numbers of cars? is a facile and scientifically unsatisfactory comparison, unless of course you?ve already made your mind up. You might as well compare a football with a lemon - on account of both being capable of breaking a window.

[keano77]

What I don?t quite understand is how the OP?s house is smelling of smoke. Presumably she has a flat in a house and people using the communal entrance would allow smoke into the hallway etc but for it to permeate all the flats appears to be extraordinary unless her windows need attention. You?d think the lady?s chimney across the road was emitting similar amounts of smoke to a power station.

[pinkladybird]

'It has instant appeal but statements such as ?one stove = x numbers of cars? is a facile and scientifically unsatisfactory comparison, unless of course you?ve already made your mind up. You might as well compare a football with a lemon - on account of both being capable of breaking a window.'

Can you be more precise? Why is it unscientifically unsatisfactory? Are you a scientist?

The EFFECT of a lemon and a football on a window CAN be compared. You would be looking at the actual impact on the glass under the same conditions. You would need the right lab. Note that in the car/stove comparisons the car and the stoves themselves are not being compared - it is the RATE OF EMISSIONS. Emission factors and rates are used frequently to make comparisons. If you have a problem with this please expand!

I didn't make up the values - they are from Leceister University. The British Medical Journal also compares emissions to cars.

Both wood smoke and vehicle fuel contains particulates, and emission rates (g/h) can be determined for both vehicles and wood burning stoves. It is quite valid to compare the two. In a previous post I stated that they are from modern diesel vehicles.That is from cars produced since 2009 and lorries since 2015. I guess they just used the average emission factors at a specific speed and converted them to rates. The emission rates for wood burning stoves are easily available and were determined from lab testing. They are for 5kW stoves at 80% efficiency using seasoned wood.

What you might be getting at is that it is difficult to control the variables, but as I said the data for the stoves are from lab testing as are cars. It is difficult for open fires (wood type, moisture...). That is why a range is given.

Fuel emission factors are compared all the time! If you have a problem with this, I would like to see your reasoning.