Do you have a woodburner?

[goldilocks]

Interesting programme. It seems that the headline figures of percentage PM2.5 as a percentage of overall pollution could be overstated (eg it might not be as high as 30%) - which is interesting, but what is clear is that all burners still do release PM2.5 and that this is harmful to everyone but even more so to those with respiritory diseases.

I've seen facebook ads recently where the headline has been around new legislation coming in and therefore upgrading stoves / burners to 'burn wood safely'. I think that the key thing is that if you're thinking of upgrading your burner, its possible to burn wood in a 'less polluting way', but not 'safely' in terms of the pollutants in your home and directly around it.

One final point i noticed was that in terms of upgrading stoves, you can also get gas stoves as a replacement. They look the same but don't burn wood - also has the added advantage of not needing to store wood somewhere/ get it delivered etc!

[Nigello]

A large sack of fuel was outside the pub on FH Road - Telegraph? - in the rain and damp for at least one night. If they burn it without drying it there will be more smoke than usual.

[Northeastview]

I had wondered about this due to some studying I?ve been doing recently whereby I was reading about the severe risks to health from cooking on indoor fires around the world: https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/household-air-pollution-and-health

I did ask my lecturer weather the same risks would apply to stoves in the UK and he thought it likely, though the exposure frequency etc would be different.

[goldilocks]

I think that there is a distinction in that the emissions from the most modern approved burners are much much lower than open fires, and as you note, the frequency would be much less.

That said, the whole point of me posting here was to try to dispel the myth that having a woodburner is a wholesome family fun way to heat your home. Unless you're living 'off grid' there really is no need for burners, and realistically they are used as an activity as well as a source of heat. All woodburners, including those sold as 'safe' or 'clean' produce pm2.5 and the effect on people is greater the closer to the source. In addition, the headline emission rates are only achieved where wood is stored in perfect conditions and burned at the right moisture levels. In reality this is not always the case.

Its not what anyone wants to hear as people have spent a lot on them and like having them, but ALL woodburning produces carcinogenic matter. There are alternatives - gas fires or stoves although the best heating option is to insulate well and use central heating.

[keano77]

?Toast is more toxic than traffic fumes

The dangers of indoor air pollution, including from toasters, household sprays and candles, have been revealed by new research

Toasting bread can expose people to more pollution than standing at a busy road junction, scientists have warned.?

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/toast-is-more-toxic-than-traffic-fumes-wm6pb6c8z

Woodburners might be the least of your problems goldilocks

[Ghlpc]

Sue Wrote:

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> Shouldn't this thread be in the lounge?

Just saying that when I asked advice about something related to east dulwich or the local area, my thread had been moved to another section almost immediately - thus reducing its exposure and potential replies.

However important this subject, it's not a unique local issue.

[bsand]

If you have one then you are poisoning yourself, your children and the environment.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/may/15/cooking-may-turn-homes-into-toxic-boxes-of-air-pollution

[jimbo1964]

bsand Wrote:

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> If you have one then you are poisoning yourself,

> your children and the environment.

Looks like there should be a wok ban too.

[goldilocks]

Its true that there are other things that cause a spike in pollutants - though for wok cooking / toasting the duration is likely to be much lower unless you're actually running an industrial kitchen! The fact that cooking also produces pollutants (which incidentally are limited to your own house - so 'only' poisoning you and your immediate family) is not a reason to continue poisoning yourselves AND your neighbours via your woodburners.

[savvygirl]

I've had a woodburner for about 40 years. I was inspired to get one after visiting friends in Cornwall. I seem to be healthy enough and don't believe I've suffered any ill effects from having one. I only burn smokeless fuel or dried kiln logs (these are used initially with kindling to get the fire going). The woodburner is very efficient when it comes to heating a room. I find I can often turn the central heating off, even on the coldest winter's day! So in their favour, they are very efficient and fairly economical. I also had a register plate fitted which stops heat escaping up the chimney and debris falling down it . As well as being aesthetically pleasing they are extremely functional. On the downside, it does necessitate having the chimney swept on a regular basis and this I have done yearly around the end of August. A woodburner needs to be maintained properly which does mean replacing faulty parts but this has amounted to very little in the 40 years I've had mine. You just have to be a responsible owner, keep it properly maintained and not fall foul of the Clean Air Act!

[goldilocks]

We never used seatbelts when I was younger and I?m ok...

[savvygirl]

I thought I was making a valid point and I took the thread seriously - sorry goldilocks' but I find your above analogy somewhat flippant.

[goldilocks]

Savvygirl - you've got to understand that after 2 pages of discussion talking about the emissions of even the newest 'eco designed' stoves, for someone to come on and say that they've had a burner for 40 years and they've been ok and haven't suffered any ill effects isn't really addressing the point I was making and felt very much like the 'its never done me any harm' argument. But in terms of taking the thread seriously, and working on the assumption that you haven't seen any of the research on wood burning, I've added a few links for you to read.

I did start this thread on the premise that perhaps people who burned wood genuinely weren't aware of the environmental impact, especially given the stove manufacturers claims of green and eco burning. So in that spirt here are some links for you to read:

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2018/may/26/wood-burner-open-fire-pollution-cleaning-up-air-quality

There are many more, but these should give you a clearer idea of why I'm concerned about this in our area.

[dbboy]

Point made, you're anti wood burners.

[James Barber]

No dbboy, I think Goldilocks is anti air pollution.

Moves against some air pollution are being taken e.g. the ULEZ implementation in April. Even that 26% of vehicles entering the zone do not comply - i.e. old than 2006 for petrol and 2015 for diesel engine (excluding taxis with different rules).

Wood burner and open fire air pollution is getting worse as many are under the impression that they are doing a good thing by the environment by using them. I think/know, from meeting Goldilocks canvassing in the past, Goldilocks is trying to inform people so they can make a more informed choice on this. I did a page in SE22 on this very issue after talking with her circa two years ago.

[goldilocks]

Thanks James - whilst you're right on the first point that its not a 'dislike of wood burners' but instead a hope that we could stop doing something so totally unnecessary that creates such a large amount of localised air pollution,

I'm afraid though that I'm not the person you met whilst canvassing! Two years ago I was blissfully unaware of how polluting wood burners were, I was still happily buying the line that they were a 'greener, carbon neutral' source of energy - I think I was even considering again whether we should fit one!

Even now that the data and the full impact is known, the 'advice' from environmental charities is very watered down, I assume in a bit to not alienate people, but having understood how harmful even new wood burners are, knowing that there are gas alternatives that look virtually identical but don't pollute in the same way in built up areas I wanted to make sure other people understood this.

I find it hard to believe that people really understand it and carry on with the same behaviour - whilst you could draw parallels with driving, it isn't really the same at all as people have many reasons why certain trips don't work on public transport / bikes for them, whereas the majority of people with wood burners could just turn on their central heating instead!

[dbboy]

yep and they probably use a burner because it's cheaper and lasts longer. keep banging on about the same point and people turn off. Maybe change the record!!!!!!!!!!!!

[savvygirl]

It is my intention to upgrade my woodburner and I will definitely do my research on the best eco-friendly one to buy. However, I will be looking for one that is efficient as well as economical as my house was built circa 1870 so not entirely sure cavity wall insulation is possible. As with many old Victorian houses, there are big bay windows and my house in particular has a good deal of glass as I have French windows in the sitting room as well as the bay. This is the reason for the woodburner which does the job of heating the room efficiently - the radiators alone come nowhere near doing this. I have always burned the correct fuel, particularly kiln dried logs and smokeless fuel and in doing so, thought I was being responsible. I think goldilocks you should be lobbying the Minister responsible for health and safety or the Minister for the environment which may be more effective than airing your views on this forum. Take some positive action which may make you feel better. As far as I know the Clean Air Act is up to date and there is a hefty fine if it's not complied with. Not sure where you can take it from there! You seem to be on some sort of crusade!

[goldilocks]

Did you know you can get gas fired 'burners' - ie that look the same but are gas powered? They're more of a clean fuel for burning in cities and look just as beautiful but without the negatives. I understand that people often need an additional source of heating in larger rooms - I also have a Victorian house so I'm not unaware of the issues. Some examples in the link below:

https://thegasfireplace.com/product-category/gas-fires/gas-stoves/

In relation to your final point of 'you seem to be on some kind of crusade' - whilst I'll ignore the idea that its zealotry that's implied with your choice of words, I am very passionate about reducing the horrific levels of air pollution locally. I have small children and would like them to grow up without breathing problems and reduced life expectancy. Obviously this won't be universal in any polluted area but the research is showing the impact is way further reaching than we originally realised.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/ng-interactive/2019/may/17/air-pollution-may-be-damaging-every-organ-and-cell-in-the-body-finds-global-review

Lobbying government for action is clearly key, but it will take time and whilst that happens the levels of pollution in our area specifically seem to be increasing exponentially from wood burning. Even if one or two people in East Dulwich take a look at the evidence and stop burning wood then this will have been worth it.

[savvygirl]

Goldilocks, why on earth did you choose to live in London and raise a family here if this is such a major concern? If you want to change things you have to start with yourself and if living in London doesn?t suit you, maybe you should consider moving away. Also, I did not mean to imply that you were a zealot, just someone with a bee in her bonnet as I believe you may have posted on this topic before. I also apologise for using the word crusade - it was not my intention to offend.

As far as a gas fired burner is concerned, I had one of these originally. It was totally ineffective on a bitter cold day and had nowhere near enough power to heat the room ? they are more for ascetic purposes and can be very costly! The woodburner I now have is powerful and, as I said, I burn smokeless fuel and dried kiln logs. Newly chopped wood is a definite no no as it hasn?t dried out and will cause masses of smoke. It needs to be stacked for at least a year, preferably two, and fully dried out before burning. When you have a woodburner, you have to be a responsible owner!

[tomskip]

Oh my, these two most recent posts are very amusing!