ManOfTheCloth Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 President Obama is trying to enforce US catholic health agencies to provide funding for Contraception. Something which against the teaching of the Catholic Church but also something that Catholics, as a rule of thumb in the US and here in the UK do not take much notice of. Why is this? And if Catholics do not take note, then how can anyone else be expected to? TelegraphI?m posting this because I read an essay last night from a book ?Why Humanae Vitae Was Right: A Reader? (ISBN-10: 0898704332 ISBN-13: 978-0898704334) and although I would have before agreed with the teaching Humanae Vitae, I wouldn?t have been able to express my reasons very clearly. When I saw the Obama article today, I thought it was kind of significant.Humanae Vitae was a document published in the 60s outlining Paul VI opposition to birth control and his reasons. Has this message ever been understood by mainstream Catholics, many of whom choose to ignore the directive and some of whom think it unimportant?Perhaps it would be good to give a simple synopsis of the philosophy of this teaching and as I understand it, having read an essay, the reasons can be set out as follows:Any form of contraception places a barrier between a man and his wife. This barrier, which can be inflicted by the man or the woman, attempts to block the ability to conceive. It violates the freedom of the individuals by taking into their own hands the right to decide whether life will be created or not. It removes this from God, the sole creator of life. True freedom is the self abandonment to God. It is therefore sinful. Sin is always damaging to oneself and often to others. It is damaging because a man and a woman exclude God from their sexual relationship, something that should be the most intimate part of their relationship. What couples fail to understand I think, is that excluding God from any part of the union they have with each other only inhibits them from becoming happier, more fulfilled people, more perfectly human. Basically, what I am saying is that including God within the whole of their relationship with each other enhances each and every part of that relationship, including the act of intercourse, so that intercourse truly becomes making love and not something pretending to act as it. They are excluding themselves from a better way of living, madness when you think about it.What parent would ever give a child back? None I hope and the way we try to control life only inhibits life. I have three brothers and I am so glad of that fact, I would be happy had I had more siblings as there is no greater friend than a brother. Large families may have to do without some things but they have so much more.I hope we can learn to trust the Church?s teaching once more because, even if we do not at first recognise the teaching for what it is truly meant to represent, I believe it is full of wisdom. It?s a shame sometimes we have to look so hard to find these pearls but then if they aren?t given to us in the mainstream media and they aren?t given to us at the pulpit or if we aren?t receiving them from the pulpit because we aren?t there or don?t listen, can we be surprised? Link to comment https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/topic/21911-obamas-war-on-the-catholic-church/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huguenot Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Oh dear Link to comment https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/topic/21911-obamas-war-on-the-catholic-church/#findComment-521902 Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Pibe Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 I'm not sure what you're asking/sayingThere seem to be two issues here:1.Is contraception right or wrong?2. Is Obama's attempt to have uniform provision of health care, regardless of the proclivities of the provider fair?And perhaps implicitly, 3.is Obama waging a war on the Catholic Church?1. Fill yer boots if that's how you feel as long as it the church doesn't start lobbying the state to act accordingly.2. I'm not sure about this one, but if health care provision is standardised i can see why there shouldn't be exceptions, perhaps there can be a compromise where non catholic workers actually do the doling out of the condoms/pill etc.3. I see no evidence of one.I thought those seminaries famously instilled a discipline of thought, or iis that just the jesuitical ones ;-) Link to comment https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/topic/21911-obamas-war-on-the-catholic-church/#findComment-521903 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brendan Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Catholics don?t really practice any of the stuff the church says anyway. Particularly the no birth control thing. We just don?t mention it when the priest is around. Just like you don?t tell your granny when you?ve been smoking crack. It?s a bit like all that believing in god business. Link to comment https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/topic/21911-obamas-war-on-the-catholic-church/#findComment-521906 Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeban Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Help! Link to comment https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/topic/21911-obamas-war-on-the-catholic-church/#findComment-521912 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otta Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Brendan Wrote:-------------------------------------------------------> Catholics don?t really practice any of the stuff> the church says anyway. Particularly the no birth> control thing. We just don?t mention it when the> priest is around. Just like you don?t tell your> granny when you?ve been smoking crack. It?s a bit> like all that believing in god business.Unfortunately, in a lot of poor countries, they do practise it, and it's a bloody disaster! Link to comment https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/topic/21911-obamas-war-on-the-catholic-church/#findComment-521913 Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuLu Too Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 So, just to be clear; Humanae Vitae advocates that the only true sexual union is essentially a threesome?Cool! Link to comment https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/topic/21911-obamas-war-on-the-catholic-church/#findComment-521957 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Most British people consider the Catholic Church's stance on contraception to be utterly disgraceful.Everybody has the right to plan their families and protect their health, if they so choose. Link to comment https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/topic/21911-obamas-war-on-the-catholic-church/#findComment-521993 Share on other sites More sharing options...
???? Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Where do we start?Even on a simple level if we are going to listen, shouldn't we believe in God's teaching not the 'church'? - that's the whole problem with the catholic church...you're meant to listen to 'it' not 'god'; it's nothing to do with any god just it's own self-serving crap ....and too often that is revolting, abusive, law breaking, corrupt, immoral, ungodly disgrace. Bring that up at your next confession not that you used a contraceptive. Link to comment https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/topic/21911-obamas-war-on-the-catholic-church/#findComment-522024 Share on other sites More sharing options...
HAL9000 Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 The doctrine has a long history - more at: St. Thomas Aquinas on contraception St. Thomas AquinasReferring to contraception, the Angelic Doctor declared: ?Hence, after the sin of homicide whereby a human life already in existence is destroyed, this type of sin appears to take next place, for by it the generation of human nature is impeded.?[1]The ?Si Aliquis? CanonDr. William May writes that this canon, integrated into the law of the Church in the Decretum Gregorii IX (book 5, title 12, chapter 5) and part of the Church?s canon law from the mid-thirteenth century until the 1917 Code of Canon Law, clearly compared contraception to murder. It declared:?If anyone (Si aliquis) for the sake of fulfilling sexual desire or with premeditated hatred does something to a man or a woman, or gives something to drink, so that he cannot generate or she cannot conceive or offspring be born, let him be held as a murderer.?[2] The Roman Catechism (Catechism of the Council of Trent)The Roman Catechism, which was published by decree of Pope St. Pius V, has been used as an authoritative guide to Church teaching since the end of the sixteenth century. The Roman Catechism states the following about contraception: ?Whoever in marriage artificially prevents conception, or procures an abortion, commits a most serious sin: the sin of premeditated murder.?[3] Dr. William May notes that Pope Paul VI explicitly referred to this text in footnote number 16 appended to Humanae vitae, no. 14. Fr. John McHugh, O.P., and Fr. Charles Callan, O.P. ?The perpetuation of the human race is endangered as soon as marriage is abused as to its natural end. Hence, after the crime of homicide which destroys human life already in existence, contraception seems to rank next in enormity, since it prevents human life from coming into existence.?[4] --------------------------------------------------------------------------------[1] St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, 3, 122.[2] Text in Corpus iuris canonici, eds. A. L. Richter and A. Friedberg (Leipzig: Tauchnitz, 1881), 2, 794.[3] The Roman Catechism, Part II, Chap. 7, No. 13, in the translation of Robert Bradley, S.J., and Eugene Kevane (Boston: St. Paul Editions, 1985), p. 332.[4] Fr. John A. McHugh, O.P., and Fr. Charles J. Callan, O.P., Moral Theology: A Complete Course, Vol. II, #2620. Link to comment https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/topic/21911-obamas-war-on-the-catholic-church/#findComment-522026 Share on other sites More sharing options...
HAL9000 Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 The Judaeo-Christian prohibition on contraception is based on the positive Biblical commandment to "be fruitful and multiply." Link to comment https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/topic/21911-obamas-war-on-the-catholic-church/#findComment-522027 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otta Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 ???? Wrote:-------------------------------------------------------> Where do we start?> > Even on a simple level if we are going to listen,> shouldn't we believe in God's teaching not the> 'church'? - that's the whole problem with the> catholic church...you're meant to listen to 'it'> not 'god'They believe that when the pope sits on the papal throne, he is speaking on God's behalf, delivering his message so to speak. Link to comment https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/topic/21911-obamas-war-on-the-catholic-church/#findComment-522058 Share on other sites More sharing options...
???? Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Well yes, that's my point.... and his mere 'flock' can only talk to him through the priesthood. No wonder the Reformation happened.Don't trust no-one but yerself I say - priests, doctors, teachers, etc :)) Link to comment https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/topic/21911-obamas-war-on-the-catholic-church/#findComment-522070 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brendan Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 I recently heard someone describe the church as having been the medieval equivalent of the EU. Which fits well with the medieval world view where the right to govern was granted by God. How you ruled was entirely up to you had divine licence to do as you pleased. The church has been politically superseded in most of Europe but still remians as this sort of extra-governmental (is that a term?) organisation. It?s like a rogue NATO using an arsenal of fear and superstition to bind the unsophisticated to its cause so that it can continue to exist. Although the use of a religion to propagate a sense of nationalist belonging amongst a population subservient to a disconnected ruling aristocracy and compliant to the requirements of an expansionist, baby-killing empire isn?t particularly big or clever either. Link to comment https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/topic/21911-obamas-war-on-the-catholic-church/#findComment-522088 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Medic Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 I'm quite grateful that contraception was banned by the CC. I wouldn't be here otherwise given that by parents would have probably started using it before number 7 (me) came along! Link to comment https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/topic/21911-obamas-war-on-the-catholic-church/#findComment-522302 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saffron Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 ManOfTheCloth Wrote:-------------------------------------------------------> > What parent would ever give a child back? Nevermind whatever else you may believe, there are plenty of pregnant women who don't want to be, and plenty of parents who abandon their unwanted infants and children. Only the narrowest, most ingnorant and selfish viewpoint would allow that all pregnancies and offspring are wanted by their progenitors. This is very sad, and you may not like it. But it is real. Recent WHO stats: Over half of all pregnancies are unplanned, and of those, over half are unwanted. In a secular country, the view that all providers of healthcare must offer contraception is not an extreme point of view, nor even a new one. Give unto Caesar what is Caesar's, no? Catholic providers of healthcare in the US should offer contraception. It's then down to individual Catholics to resist the tempation (if they care to do so).The REAL QUESTION is would we even be having this discussion if there were a reliable contraceptive jab for men? Link to comment https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/topic/21911-obamas-war-on-the-catholic-church/#findComment-522306 Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodrot Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 The Catholic church is an Antideluval homophobic mysoginistic Nazi paedophile death cult that uses fear and baseless superstition to ensure a ready supply of victims to contribute to its coffers & condolidate its power base.Its centuries old obsure dogma inspired proto terrorism campiagn makes Al Quaida look like a bunch of do gooder neo hippy part timers. Link to comment https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/topic/21911-obamas-war-on-the-catholic-church/#findComment-522972 Share on other sites More sharing options...
HAL9000 Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 All?hu Akbar - let's all convert to Islam, now! Hajj Talbiyah Link to comment https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/topic/21911-obamas-war-on-the-catholic-church/#findComment-522985 Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Pibe Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 a tad hyperbolic there snoodrot! Link to comment https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/topic/21911-obamas-war-on-the-catholic-church/#findComment-522986 Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodrot Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 he started it Link to comment https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/topic/21911-obamas-war-on-the-catholic-church/#findComment-523130 Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Pibe Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 touch? ;) Link to comment https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/topic/21911-obamas-war-on-the-catholic-church/#findComment-523187 Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamerr Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 . Link to comment https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/topic/21911-obamas-war-on-the-catholic-church/#findComment-524207 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saffron Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/on-faith/in-birth-control-debate-whose-conscience-will-rule/2012/02/09/gIQAoetS1Q_story.htmlFrom the article:"Birth-control is widely used even by Catholics: 98 percent of American Catholic women have used contraception in their lifetimes. And according to a poll released this week, nearly 60 percent of American Catholics believe that employer health insurance should cover contraceptives ? in spite of their church?s theological opposition.""Birth control is noncontroversially good for families and children. According to the National Campaign to Prevent Teen and Unplanned Pregnancy, ?a child born as the result of an unintended pregnancy is at greater risk of premature birth, low birth weight and abuse or neglect, and babies who are born early or too small have a greater chance of dying in their first year of life.? Planned children are more likely to benefit from good prenatal care and to be breast-fed."Obama is not having a war on the Catholic church. He is trying to ensure the health and well-being of women and children across the US. Link to comment https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/topic/21911-obamas-war-on-the-catholic-church/#findComment-524287 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saffron Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 gamerr Wrote:-------------------------------------------------------> Didn't a study in America show that 98% of> Catholic women use birth control?http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/post/the-claim-that-98-percent-of-catholic-women-use-contraception-a-media-foul/2012/02/16/gIQAkPeqIR_blog.html"Data shows that 98 percent of sexually experienced women of child-bearing age and who identify themselves as Catholic have used a method of contraception other than natural family planning at some point in their lives." "The 98-percent figure first appeared in an April 2011 study written by Rachel K. Jones and Joerg Dreweke of the Guttmacher Institute, which is a non-profit organization that promotes reproductive health and had started as an arm of Planned Parenthood. The study is titled 'Countering Conventional Wisdom: New Evidence on Religion and Contraceptive Use.'"See also discussion here:http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/guest-voices/post/family-planning-is-preventive-healthcare-for-women/2011/07/26/gIQA1UjVbI_blog.html Link to comment https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/topic/21911-obamas-war-on-the-catholic-church/#findComment-524289 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ManOfTheCloth Posted February 19, 2012 Author Share Posted February 19, 2012 98% of Catholic women would be wrong then; they would be committing grave sin. Sorry but that is the long and short of it. Your sins will be forgiven though of course but why continue to damage ourselves and others in this way anymore? As Alan said, I wouldn't be here either if my parents had used contraception. I wasn't planned, at least not at the time I came along (I was born only 11 months after my brother) but I was wanted. I was wanted because my parents allowed God to decide when their children were born, that's true Freedom. They are one of the happiest couples I know and are fast approaching their 40th wedding anniversary.This is an interesting article to add weight to my argument. Perhaps my best argument though is my total inability to imagine life without having known one of my brothers, I shudder to think how much love I would have missed out on and would continue to miss out on. The more the merrier I say, plus, growing up we always had an awesome 5 A-side football team!Business Insider Link to comment https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/topic/21911-obamas-war-on-the-catholic-church/#findComment-524330 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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