A radom political observation

[TheCat]

So the last few years has seen a number of right wing victories - trump, conservatives/brexit, and today the liberal coalition holding on to power in Australia. As someone who comes from left-wing roots, but now would class myself as a 'swing voter', I think the one thing that has struck me in all cases is the incredulity with which the left wingers meet each defeat. It's seems that often the left is so certain of its own righteousness that it has no idea how people could vote for anything different. I think this is probably the lefts biggest problem these days , is the unwavering certainty that they are 'right' and 'good'.....it stops them from questioning themselves or their broad appeal. I personally want to see viable left/progressive alternative governments in all areas I have an interest in (namely UK and australia). As a well run left wing government can move mountains...this week we lost a giant of labor politics in Australia, Bob Hawke, who showed that left/progressive government can govern for all, and make positive social change. I truly hope that those on the left do not dwell on the fact that they have 'right' on their side therefore everyone else is 'wrong, but perhaps question their moral certainty, and look to work for broader appeal....

[malumbu]

Australia is not exactly a progressive country. Environmental credentials quite shocking. More worried about what is happening across Europe. Do prove me wrong about Australia! Maybe a reflection on rather a conservative population.

[Passiflora]

malumbu Wrote:

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> Australia is not exactly a progressive country.

> Environmental credentials quite shocking. More

> worried about what is happening across Europe. Do

> prove me wrong about Australia! Maybe a

> reflection on rather a conservative population.

Erm, you are stating that Australia is not exactly a progressive country?

Totally uncalled for.

[TheCat]

malumbu Wrote:

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> Australia is not exactly a progressive country.

> Environmental credentials quite shocking. More

> worried about what is happening across Europe. Do

> prove me wrong about Australia! Maybe a

> reflection on rather a conservative population.

To be fair. The longer I've lived outside australia the more intolerant the 'lucky country' appears. And in anycase the problem is not Oz specific....

[malumbu]

I think that there is assumption that the New Worlds (dreadful colonial connotations) will be more progressive than the UK, which I don't think is necessarily true. Despite everything going on the UK is still generally a tolerant and liberal country, more so that many of our European neighbours. Then there is separating opinion vs fact, and many of my views are based on the latter. But fact for example is that there is far greater social mobility in the UK than the US, yet the latter prides itself on being an equal society rather than more ofteb being condemned to staying where you are in terms of class depending on the family you were born into.

I was rather stunned when I visited NZ when many of the first generation Brits who then ran the guest houses, B&Bs, would start off by talking about their 'black' problem (the programme of redressing the injustices against the maori people). Hopefully those ignorance racists have not died out. And my Oz family - racist, homophobic, and maybe representative of small town/commuter belt Australia, and many similarites with my Tamworth in-laws.

Anyway gross generalisations. More woried about having Johnson as our 'leader' (and Farage pulling the strings).

[Hemingway]

I am absolutely with you on the self-righteousness of the left, has pushed me way away from where I started politically. Built into left wing politics, especially the Marxist left, but to a lesser extents it still part of the DNA of even some of the more social democratic parts, is that belief they are absolutely right - historical determinsim innit etc etc. This means that those who see things differently to them are doing so because:

- they are bad/evil (sociopathic is now their favourite criticism of opponents)

- Thick/stupid misled by sinister puppetmasters and the 'mainstream Media' Murdoch etc, etc

Ridiculous, intolerant simplistic and patronising tosh of course.

This same absolutism also creates a kind of accepted moral relativism which means that blind eyes can be turned to horrific regimes , individuals and organisations as long as they are broadly on the 'right side'

Many of us grow out of this simplistic and dogmatic way of thinking but a few don't, including much of academia and tragically the upper echelons of the Labour party nowadays.

Centrism needs to stand up against the idiots of the right and left - and their simplistic unpleasant and divisive dogma

[JohnL]

Hemingway Wrote:

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> - they are bad/evil (sociopathic is now their

> favourite criticism of opponents)

> - Thick/stupid misled by sinister puppetmasters

> and the 'mainstream Media' Murdoch etc, etc

No - It's just money and fame IMHO. The Alt Right at the moment is the quickest way up the ladder so the ambitious choose it. The people supporting it don't believe it - they're what is now called "Grifters"

[JohnL]

Farage 'Milkshaked' in Newcastle just now. Not sure it's the left doing it.

https://metro.co.uk/2019/05/20/milkshake-thrown-nigel-farage-campaigning-brexit-party-9611941/

[uncleglen]

JohnL Wrote:

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> Farage 'Milkshaked' in Newcastle just now. Not

> sure it's the left doing it.

>

> https://metro.co.uk/2019/05/20/milkshake-thrown-ni

> gel-farage-campaigning-brexit-party-9611941/

The 'suspected milkshake thrower looks like a leftie to me- thank goodness the voting is all over by half-term week....I was in a town centre this weekend where the Brexit party had a stall....all very civilised I might add

[JohnL]

Banana and Salted Caramel flavour.

Sounds posh as if it's from Waitrose. How do the press know this (you wonder).

[uncleglen]

JohnL Wrote:

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> Banana and Salted Caramel flavour.

>

> Sounds posh as if it's from Waitrose. How do the

> press know this (you wonder).

The milkshake was from Five Guys....

The 'man'....https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/9114777/nigel-farage-milkshake-attacker-is-a-fanatical-remainer-and-corbyn-fan/

[Seabag]

Maybe a cow could sh1t on Mr Farage

Even two cows, one either side, each time he opened his mouth

[Maybaby]

Seabag Wrote:

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> Maybe a cow could sh1t on Mr Farage

>

> Even two cows, one either side, each time he

> opened his mouth

Does this add to the thread in any meaningful way?

Is something wrong with you? What kind of post is that?

[Maybaby]

I think arrogance plays a large role in their inability (?)/refusal to accept that they could be wrong. Some on the 'left' are so unbalanced, I sometimes think they are beyond redemption.

Violence on the left is more common. I read a study by the German government on this a few years ago. I will try to find it...

[Brulysses]

Exactly the same could be said for those on the right of the spectrum too, and your theory that violence on the left is more common is sheer bullshit I'm afraid.

[keano77]

Seems to be a lot of coarse language on this thread this morning

[JohnL]

Maybaby Wrote:

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> I think arrogance plays a large role in their

> inability (?)/refusal to accept that they could be

> wrong. Some on the 'left' are so unbalanced, I

> sometimes think they are beyond redemption.

>

> Violence on the left is more common. I read a

> study by the German government on this a few years

> ago. I will try to find it...

At the moment Leave and Remain are not Left and Right. Lexit is popular with the far left and the libertarian right would like free trade across the globe..

[Brulysses]

Keano, if you're clutching your pearls at my use of the word 'Bullshit' you might need to go and lie down for a bit.

[keano77]

Brulysses Wrote:

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> Keano, if you're clutching your pearls at my use

> of the word 'Bullshit' you might need to go and

> lie down for a bit.

You could have said:

?...Exactly the same could be said for those on the right of the spectrum too, and your theory that violence on the left is more common is incorrect/wrong/misguided/an oversimplification (etc) I'm afraid.?

I?m not trying to tell you what to say, simply pointing out as I caress my natural (non-cultured) pearls that in the space of four posts there were two profanities

[diable rouge]

JohnL Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Hemingway Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > - they are bad/evil (sociopathic is now their

> > favourite criticism of opponents)

> > - Thick/stupid misled by sinister puppetmasters

> > and the 'mainstream Media' Murdoch etc, etc

>

> No - It's just money and fame IMHO. The Alt

> Right at the moment is the quickest way up the

> ladder so the ambitious choose it. The people

> supporting it don't believe it - they're what is

> now called "Grifters"

I'm not sure they don't believe in it, but they are definitely doing it for attention/money. Here's a grifter in action, nothing more than trolling/bullying, I actually feel sorry for the Brexit supporting MP who supposed to be on their side, but it looks like he's not Brexity enough...https://twitter.com/BBCWalesNews/status/1130940872445579264

[TheCat]

In linking all this back to my original post.....as has happened a litte on this thread, I often find these discussions end up with 'normal' left-leaning people defending their moral certainty by pointing to unreasonable right-wing nutters and saying they are much worse.

Well, yes they probably are....but it seems a ridiculous comparison though....as by 'normal' left leaning people, Im often referring to close friends and family...who on most other topics seems like reasonable people, but then when politics comes up, im constantly amazed at how they can be so dismissive and degrading anyone who didnt vote Labour.....basically suggesting that anyone that did not must be far right/alt-right/nazi/evil/uncaring/greedy/ignorant/mis-lead/fooled...as if half the bell curve full of 'normal' centre-right people doesn't even exist....

[JohnL]

TheCat Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> In linking all this back to my original

> post.....as has happened a litte on this thread, I

> often find these discussions end up with 'normal'

> left-leaning people defending their moral

> certainty by pointing to unreasonable right-wing

> nutters and saying they are much worse.

>

> Well, yes they probably are....but it seems a

> ridiculous comparison though....as by 'normal'

> left leaning people, Im often referring to close

> friends and family...who on most other topics

> seems like reasonable people, but then when

> politics comes up, im constantly amazed at how

> they can be so dismissive and degrading anyone who

> didnt vote Labour.....basically suggesting that

> anyone that did not must be far

> right/alt-right/nazi/evil/uncaring/greedy/ignorant

> /mis-lead/fooled...as if half the bell curve full

> of 'normal' centre-right people doesn't even

> exist....

It's not just the right wing that gets it - #fbpe has been battered on twitter recently as a cult that wants to "get corbyn" when actually most probably voted labour in 2017.

[Seabag]

Maybaby Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Seabag Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Maybe a cow could sh1t on Mr Farage

> >

> > Even two cows, one either side, each time he

> > opened his mouth

>

> Does this add to the thread in any meaningful

> way?

>

> Is something wrong with you? What kind of post is

> that?

You need ?cowing? too by the sound of it.

Chill out, way too uptight.