Dulwich & Herne Hill Quiet Skies Campaign

[first mate]

A few weekends ago when the weather was warmer and we were outside, I counted planes coming over at around 1 every minute, they were low too.

rollflick Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> In response to those absolutist, bah humbug

> comments above, over 28% of all the people in the

> EU affected by the highest levels of aircraft

> noise are under the Heathrow flight path, many of

> them here in south London. While Concorde was just

> a few times a day, the flights now are far more

> frequent and as often as every 90s, especially

> first thing in the morning. There are serious

> economic and health impacts, putting more pressure

> on our NHS for instance.

>

> As this recent report by the London Assembly notes

> there are particular issues for those areas also

> affected by City but also practical solutions such

> as respite periods and opposing further expansion:

>

> https://www.london.gov.uk/sites/default/files/airc

> raft-noise-report.pdf

>

> Definitely agree about the need to measure noise

> with windows open for hot summer nights, which are

> being made more extreme by air travel induced

> climate change. Unless Heathrow wants to buy us

> all double glazing, A/C and zero carbon

> electricity to power them that is.

[exdulwicher]

A few weekends ago when the weather was warmer and we were outside, I counted planes coming over at around 1 every minute, they were low too.

Download an app called Flightrader24. Allow it to access your location and then just fire it up. It'll show you a near-enough live map of all aircraft movements, you can click/tap on a plane and it'll bring up its flight path, departure & arrival airports, aircraft type, altitude and speed.

You'll soon get an idea of flightpaths and you can pick out the 4 stacks that Heathrow have (Bovingdon, Lambourne, Ockham & Biggin), the paths from there into the approach path and so on.

Most aircraft coming over East Dulwich inbound for Heathrow are about 4000ft, descending at roughly 600fpm (at that moment, the exact rate fluctuates a bit) and doing about 180 knots (205mph). Slightly different for City which generally takes smaller aircraft.

[Nunhead S]

I miss Concorde too. Living in London it is part of the experience. I also use aeroplanes so shan?t complain. Plus have worked in west London - where they fly so low over houses and schools in a way I have never see in SE London.

[Chick]

I have pictures of Concorde flying over Dulwich, I could scan them and send them to any one interested.

[dbboy]

London = UK Capital.

Planes flying over head are to be expected, we've three airports here with arrivals and departures across the globe. If you'd prefer somewhere quieter, have you considered the Outer Hebrides.

[EDNate]

I've signed you petition, but feel it would be valuable to get more information.

Do you have any statistics or information comparing London to that of other comparable large cities in the world? What is the situation in New York, Paris, Chicago Tokyo ? Do those cities have large residential areas that suffer from the levels of air and noise pollution we face in London and in particular Dulwich ?

[exdulwicher]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48668001

It's going to get noisier....

[mikeb]

And that's kind of the point - noise has got worse not just with Heathrow but also City - and it's a one-way street. Heathrow's raison d'etre is to spend money on capex so that it can receive its regulated equity return. More capex = more return.

[exdulwicher]

Do you have any statistics or information comparing London to that of other comparable large cities in the world? What is the situation in New York...

I don't have any noise stats for it but new York has three main airports: JFK, LaGuardia and Newark Liberty. If ONE of those airports has to change it's arrival / departure direction due to weather, the other two HAVE to change as well simply to deconflict. It's not quite that bad at Heathrow / Gatwick / City.

There's a noise & flight tracking map for New York here:

https://aircraftnoise.panynj.gov/track-flights/

Schipol is a major international hub with 6 runways and it's only 5 miles from the centre of Amsterdam. That said, only two are usually in use at any one time although they can go up to 4 at very busy times. The Dutch seem very good with noise mitigation measures; the airport has all sorts of intelligent design stuff built in and most people there seem to accept that living in Amsterdam has more benefits than not - they've got considerably cleaner air and less noise in the first place because of the cycle friendly layout which dramatically lowers vehicle use.

Problem is that building a third runway doesn't just mean extra flights, it also means tens of thousands of extra vehicle journeys in and around the Heathrow and M25/M4/M3 area. It's really not an easy problem to solve without flattening the entire area and starting from scratch.

[Bth]

Heathrow has no conscience. The CAA is pretty toothless for example helicopters are suppose not to fly below 500 feet but this is never monitored and it has no powers to monitor noise levels at the London City Airport. If the third runway is built at Heathrow there will be 50% more flights over this area. The London City Airport is being expanded and there will be more takeoffs when completed. Those residents who have dismissed this petition should perhaps think again or do they intend moving in the next few years? I don?t think I should have to move to accommodate aircraft pollution instead Heathrow and the London City Airport should be moved to the Thames estuary.

[exdulwicher]

The CAA is pretty toothless for example helicopters are suppose not to fly below 500 feet but this is never monitored

It is and London is some of the most protected and well-controlled airspace in western Europe. That said, emergency services (which is the majority of helicopter traffic around there) are exempt. Majority is still around 1000 - 1500ft; the sort of height where it can move relatively freely without cluttering up Gatwick and Heathrow radar and approaches.

Track enough helicopters around there and you'll find a lot are in and out of Battersea Heliport but their descent pattern is almost always along the river.

Heathrow and the London City Airport should be moved to the Thames estuary.

The idea of "Boris Island" airport (which has been around in one form or another since the late 1970s) was an alternative to expanding Heathrow, not a complete replacement.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thames_Estuary_Airport

It'll never happen now. The best long term answer is actually to link other, smaller airports and use their capacity. HS2 could easily link Heathrow, Birmingham and Manchester airports - and once the HS2 spur goes up to there, Leeds-Bradford can hook in too. It's the most environmentally friendly option, it has the advantage that you're not reliant on ONE airport and it means you're not subjecting anyone to excessive noise because the load is spread around.

It does rely on some good integrated project management though, lead at Government level and currently the Government is busy deciding which complete moron is going to wreck the country the quickest so who knows...

*edited for spelling*

[Growlybear]

I can never understand how the noise from aircraft can have such an impact on people in this area. I have lived in East Dulwich/Forest Hill for over 40 years, and whilst I agree there seems to be an increase in the volume of flights, I can't remember ever having been really disturbed by the noise. I used to love sitting in the garden watching Concorde fly overhead, but even the noise from that wasn't intrusive. The planes often fly low enough to be able to make out the airline, and regularly fly directly over my house. I'm also a light sleeper but have never been disturbed by plane noise. I find the traffic far more bothersome during the day than any plane, and the worst noise of all has to be the foxes when they start shrieking in the middle of the night.

[SUT]

We are promoting the petition today (7 July) at the HERNE HILL SUNDAY MARKET at the Community Stand. Do come along and support us.

[mikeb]

Noisy morning today. Woken by planes at 6am as soon as they went back to one every 45 seconds. There was not a moment when the sky wasn't rumbling, as the noise from one hadn't stopped before the next one came in. I've lived next to busy roads and railway lines and they were less intrusive.

[klove]

We're right under it too... and think it's quite localised even in East Dulwich. If you're under the planes they are awful: so low that you can read which airline it is and literally no break from the noise. But even a couple of roads away it's not so bad.

People on this thread who don't think it's that bad are probably in those lucky streets. They are more then welcome to come into my back garden and try and have a conversation over the constant rumble!

I've signed and thanks for the initiative!

[skylorikeet]

Me too, mikeb. I've lived in London my whole life and have lived so close to railway lines I could practically read the passengers' newspapers but I've never found anything as intrusive as plane noise. I do envy those who say it doesn't bother them, I've tried to tell myself the same but the noise really does have an effect on me.

[i*Rate]

Hi Klove and skylorikeet,

Nice to hear from a couple of people that feel the way I do about the aircraft noise. I've lived in London all my life but in ED since 1980 when it used to be quiet, then it all went wrong around the late 1990s. Have complained to Heathrow many times with specific views about why we should have to put up with the noise and seem to have no rights to silence.

Sadly, or madly, rather the MP have agreed to the third runway at Heathrow, so now it will get much worse. I tried finding out how and where they would fly the extra 300 planes a day into Heathrow and got no answer.

Who know we may have parallel flight paths over our head in the future!? Scary and depressing stuff!

Cheers.

[Tony2014]

Hi,

Apologies if this has been posted but I had an email from Helen Hayes about a Heathrow consultation that's happening in Lambeth today. It hasn't been very well publicised by Heathrow of course.

''I wanted to be sure that you are aware that there is a public consultation event on Heathrow Airport which will be held in Lambeth on Thursday 18th July. The consultation will be held at Wheatsheaf Community Hall, Wheatsheaf Lane, off South Lambeth Road, London SW8 2UP from 2-8pm.

I have previously written to the CEO of Heathrow Airport to raise concerns about the scope of the previous consultation, which was overwhelmingly focused on the areas close to Heathrow, and did not include any events in my constituency. I am therefore pleased that, even though this event is not in my constituency, it is being held in Lambeth. I strongly encourage you to attend the event or to submit your views into this process. ''

[James Barber]

I would really recommend people join HACAN if aircraft noise bothers them - https://hacan.org.uk/

[klines11]

I really love that HACAN logo lol

[SUT]

City Airport is currently conducting two public consultations. We would urge local residents affected by aircraft noise to take part.

The first is on its Master Plan for expansion, to increase flight numbers by 40,000 a year, get rid of the ban on flights between 12.30pm Saturday and 12.30pm on Sunday. Additionally it is proposing that more flights are allowed to operate in the early morning and late evening. The consultation closes on 20 September 2019. Details are at:

https://www.londoncityairport.com/corporate/consultation

The second consultation is on flight paths, which closes on 25 August 2019. We would favour of the proposal to avoid overflying communities (such as ours) with multiple routes from other airports. We would wish to oppose any further concentration of flight paths by rejecting the proposal to minimise the number of people newly overflown and total population overflown.

https://forms.office.com/Pages/ResponsePage.aspx?id=b4JG-iszn0mEE_DGO0loyBk7XPr84EZLkq3zNJM-PC1UQ0I5SDE2S1RCQldKVFc5Mk5HNFg2MFRLUC4u

The HACAN EAST website is a good source of information: https://www.hacaneast.org.uk/news

[ThorNogson]

Heathrow have a public consultation open at the moment. Many local residents complain of being woken from 4.30 am during the summer when we have windows open. A third runway will mean more of their flight arrivals over London. Making a response is easy, and even easier if you use the guide published by Climate Action Lewisham on their Facebook pages at

https://www.facebook.com/groups/274035326574499/?multi_permalinks=401961243781906%2C401743323803698%2C400785293899501%2C400320527279311%2C401940890450608&notif_id=1565426756985729&notif_t=group_activity

Vicky Foxcroft MP (Lewisham and Deptford) is holding a public meeting with Heathrow on 21st August about their expansion plans. All are welcome - details here.

https://www.vickyfoxcroft.org.uk/in-lewisham-deptford/2019/08/01/heathrow-airport-expansion-consultation-meeting/

[ThorNogson]

https://www.newham.gov.uk/Pages/News/Mayor-of-Newham-calls-for-London-City-Airport-consultation-to-be-halted-in-open-letter-to-airport-chief-executive.aspx

It will be interesting to see if London City Airport expansive plans survive the direct criticism of its own planning authority, Newham.

[Tony2014]

Hi,

On the London City Airport form (which is designed to confuse and only get the answers they want)there is the following option about design priorities:

"In what order would you prioritise the following design principles

.

.

4. Should improve resilience during abnormal operating conditions" - what does that mean/refer to?

[yorksgirl]

Agree Tony 2014, the London City Airport "consultation" is one of the worst examples I have ever seen. Every question is crooked, aimed at manipulating people who read them quickly into giving answers that the airport can use to say the expansion plans are supported.

At the moment City Airport is running a massive ad campaign to push weekend leisure breaks to European capitals. At the same time as claiming that airport expansion is "needed" because of their "projections" of the "need" for increased flights.

The Evening Standard was trying to push the Royal Docks area / Custom House / Newham as the latest "gentrification" spot this week but even they had to qualify it with "if you can stand the noise". There's a reason why it's cheap, which is that you will die early from the noise stress, and the stinking petrol-laden air. That's if the local "businessmen" don't get you first. Strongly recommend a read of "Legacy - Gangsters, corruption and the London Olympics" to understand why not to move to Royal Docks / Custom House / Newham. If you thought Line of Duty was far-fetched....well, it wasn't.