LTN: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3

[thebestnameshavegone]

Car parking is the lowest use of public space ever devised. Free car parking, doubly so.

[Earl Aelfheah]

thebestnameshavegone Wrote:

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> Car parking is the lowest use of public space ever

> devised. Free car parking, doubly so.

Totally agree. The amount of public space we give over to motor vehicles and long term car storage is a joke. With typically two lanes of parked cars and two lanes of moving traffic on most residential roads, there is little left for people. That said, CPZs only entrench the idea that cars have an unquestionable right to dominate public space. Personally, I would like to see a lot of space reallocated away from car storage, to prioritising bikes and people.

[Earl Aelfheah]

The planters have gone in today and look great. Now we need to get something done to make space for people in ED. Whilst I support the measures in the village, why Southwark have identified one of the most affluent and lowest density areas as the priority for creating more space for people is questionable. Let's see some work done over the border quickly please.

[73jem]

I think that the main object is to try to make the crossing to the shops and the schools less dangerous for pedestrians, as well as making crossing the main road safer for cyclists. True that it also seems to have made an attractive space in the center of the village.

There seems to be quite a lot of traffic coming down Court Lane towards the village and either turning round or going left up Dekker Road. I don't know if there is a sign at the far end of Court Lane to warn drivers of the closure. Hopefully drivers will work out that it would be best to stick to the main roads.

Traffic from Turney Road which would have gone across into Calton Avenue was turning left into the main road without a problem.

So maybe it will not be the disaster that so many seem to fear?

[Abe_froeman]

The traffic looks dreadful right now on google maps. particularly along Dulwich Village and EDG

[exdulwicher]

To be fair, it's no worse than most of SE London. South Circular all the way from Tulse Hill to LL is solid, Herne Hill is dark red around the main junction. Crystal Palace and The Triangle looks rammed as well.

Might go for a bike ride one afternoon this week and see if I can get some pictures.

The DV junction is already updated in Google Maps and Waze as closed so hopefully a lot of sat nav directed traffic will settle in quite quickly. It's the people who drive local trips without checking stuff like that that get caught out initially, they generally soon learn to re-route even if it's learning the hard way initially!

[Abe_froeman]

Lol Crystal Palace Triangle is closed for road works !

Do you work in the council's traffic data team??

[slarti b]

I popped down there this afternoon on way to Post Office around 3.30. Long queues in Dulwich Village going North from Roundabout (and before). Not unexpected given narrowing of road to one Lane. Cars that would have turned right into Calton will now go North along Dulwich Village to Red Post Hill then right along EDG.

Similarly cars that would gone South East along Calton will now go along EDG then South along Dulwich Village.

Poorly thought out and opportunistic. Just diverting most of the through traffic really.

[Rockets]

And we need to bear in mind that traffic is still a lot lower as the majority of people are still not back at work. We also need to factor in that there has been no warning of this bar a couple of temporary road-signs put up along Calton Avenue - we walked passed them on Sunday and I was surprised there were none along Court Lane.

To rahrahrah's point - yes sat navs may be alerted to the closure but that also means they will now be routing cars via backstreets to completed their journeys - it's what happened at Loughborough Junction - Waze, GoogleMaps etc just took people around the houses.

[flanter]

This is great. The changes to Champion hill have added up to ten minutes to my journey to work and now the inspired and ill thought out changes to the end of Court Lane adds another ten minutes. That's twenty minutes of my car sitting there burning fossils, can't afford an electric, would love one, can't take a bus (genetic reasons) and cycle when I can.

[thebestnameshavegone]

Went past earlier, looks fantastic. Hope this is the first of many.

[first mate]

But aside from what it looks like, what is your response to the experience of those like the poster above you?

[march46]

slarti b Wrote:

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> I popped down there this afternoon on way to Post

> Office around 3.30. Long queues in Dulwich

> Village going North from Roundabout (and before).

> Not unexpected given narrowing of road to one

> Lane. Cars that would have turned right into

> Calton will now go North along Dulwich Village to

> Red Post Hill then right along EDG.

>

> Similarly cars that would gone South East along

> Calton will now go along EDG then South along

> Dulwich Village.

>

> Poorly thought out and opportunistic. Just

> diverting most of the through traffic really.

slarti b - you've spoken from a onedulwich perspective previously so I wonder if you can clarify how the displacement at 3.30pm would have differed under the onedulwich solution (which I believe would have operated at peak times)?

[Abe_froeman]

I guess it wouldn't have given that all the schools are currently closed and so none of this traffic is school traffic

[thebestnameshavegone]

It sounds like a lovely anecdote, I look forward to seeing the data once the scheme has had a chance.

[Abe_froeman]

What data?!

[rollflick]

It's a great improvement for walking and cycling. Hope the half of carriageway by the hairdresser/ shops can be made walking /seats only, with bikes going round the other side of the island.

rahrahrah Wrote:

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> That said, CPZs only entrench the idea that cars have an unquestionable right to dominate public space. Personally, I > would like to see a lot of space reallocated away from car storage, to prioritising bikes and people.

Well the Peckham West CPZ has done exactly that, lots more space for social distancing now on some of London's narrowest pavements. Hope the council can extend CPZs soon south of ED Grove, where pavements are narrow too.

[slarti b]

march46 Wrote:

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> slarti b - you've spoken from a onedulwich perspective previously so I wonder if you can

> clarify how the displacement at 3.30pm would have differed under the onedulwich solution (which I

> believe would have operated at peak times)?

March,

Are you asking the question in the context of the OHS scheme or the current "temporary" Covid measures?

As part of OHS, the One Dulwich scheme would work in conjunction with other OHS measures in Area C such as closure of DV Northbound at peak times and Turney Road becoming one way. This would significantly reduce through traffic but would result in less traffic diversion than Southwarks's OHS proposals.

Closing the DV junction, or restricting at peak times, by itself is not part of the OneDulwich concept. Anyone who understands the traffic flows in the area will know this will cause diversion and extra traffic along alternative routes as I mentioned previously; going North or North East principally DV North and EDG but maybe also Court Lane\Dovercourt\Townley\EDG or Dekker\Calton\Townley etc. Going South ould be EDG\Townley Lordship Lane or DV South. Any action taken at DV junction, whether permanent or temporary, will have significant impact elsewhere which is why I think it is opportunistic and ill considered.

The reality is that closing the DV junction by itself, without reducing traffic coming into Area's A and B, will just cause diversion of traffic, often past local schools. But if you reduce through traffic coming into the area, the complete closure of DV junction is not needed as traffic volumes will be massively reduced.

So, can I ask you how you, or rather the Councillors, assess the impact of diverted traffic under both the proposed OHS scheme and the current closure of the DV junction. This was barely covered in the OHS phase 3 slides apart from saying that this traffic should be diverted onto "main roads". Please tell me which roads these are? Looking at the traffic flows these are likely to be Croxted road, Lordship lane, East Dulwich Grove, Matham Grove and Half Moon Lane. Can you confirm this ?

And remember, the OHS slides estimate a maximum of 11% of traffic will evaporate, that leaves over 6,000 traffic movements to relocate.

Final point, we do need to be careful about looking at long term decisions based on current traffic volumes. More people are probably driving to work but there is much less school traffic, especially the Foundation schools that cause so much congestion during their term time. As we have seen, the council officers and the Councillors seem very happy to promote alarmist tales based on highly misleading statistics (the "47% increase" in traffic through the junction). Any conclusions presented by the council need to be backed up by detailed, objective data that can be independently reviewed.

I look forward to you reply.

[northernmonkey]

Slarti b: I'm not sure I understand your response above. You have stated that

"Closing the DV junction, or restricting at peak times, by itself is not part of the OneDulwich concept"

The One Dulwich 'tagline' is literally 'Timed restrictions, not permanent closures'. Can you clarify please?

[intexasatthe moment]

On a side note ,am I the only one who was disapointed that the closure points aren't shown on the map in Southwark's consultation document

https://dulwichvillagestreetspace.commonplace.is/?utm_campaign=launch ?

It would make it so much easier ( for me at least ) to consider the new arrangement if it were presented visually .

I may well have missed the map showing the closures so hopefully someone can share a link .

[heartblock]

East Dulwich Grove is definitely not healthy at 9:00am....standing traffic all the way up to the crossroads with the Village. Awful for cyclists, school children, pedestrians and I imagine car users. Standing traffic, fumes and pollution.

[slarti b]

@Northernmonkey

March46 was comparing the current point closure of the DV junction with the One Dulwich proposal. My point was that One Dulwich needs to be looked at in the context of the wider measures in OHS in particular Area C. We have never proposed restrictions on DV junction by itself. This has come about because the Councillors have taken advantage of the Covid 19 situation to rush through ill considered changes.

Southwark's OHS scheme for area B has 3 or 4 timed restrictions and 2 permanent closures. OneDulwich proposes turning all of those into timed restrictions. In area C there are at least 2 further timed restictions so the concept is well established even by Southwark. Hope that answers your question.

[dulwichquine]

Just wondering why the council has closed the DV junction just as the schools are closing?! If deemed necessary to protect school children, why not do it for when schools re-open?

[exdulwicher]

East Dulwich Grove is definitely not healthy at 9:00am....standing traffic all the way up to the crossroads with the Village. Awful for cyclists, school children, pedestrians and I imagine car users. Standing traffic, fumes and pollution.

It'll take a month or so to bed in and for any changes in traffic patterns / flow / volume to settle down. Not much point in looking at it after <24hrs in place.

@slartib is right, they should have done the whole Healthy Streets thing at the same time while traffic is relatively light. I appreciate that timed restrictions are difficult without camera controlled junctions which you can't put in at short notice but the principle of the HS is difficult to assess when you close one junction.

However - it's in now, people will (gradually) adapt and in 6 months time a proper assessment can be done.

[Rockets]

To Slarti b's point - the issue a lot of people have is that the council is taking a shotgun approach to this - there is no area-wide thinking - they just want to throw roadblocks in at points that they think are rat-runs and are presuming that car-use plummets on the back of it - they know, and we know, that isn't the case - you might lose 10% of car-use as locals consider different ways to travel to local destinations but there will still be through-traffic - it just goes another route. At the same time the council do nothing to support Lordship lane in terms of assisting with social distancing.

This is why so many people are registering their support for One Dulwich - they are fed-up with the council not listening to the people who actually live across the area as a whole. The council will only ever listen to a vocal minority in hand-picked areas and activists with a vested-interest - and they are tone-deaf to anyone with a differing opinion to their own - and actually quite disparaging to them - look at the way they handled the public meetings on the CPZ.

The council are reaping what they sow - when you extend double-yellow lines to create parking pressure, when 68% of people in an area vote against a CPZ and you change the parameters so you can go ahead with it, when you lie to justify additional closures and you ignore the electorate the electorate have to take matters into their own hands.