Goverrment emegency response, and scientific advice

[malumbu]

Hearing about special advisors and the like getting involved in decision making during the current crisis there are some useful government docs on line including this one on the Scientific Advice Group for emergencies (the 'secret' (as coined by the Guardian)). Not sure why HMG don't publish this guidance or the National Risk Register any more. The attached is from the coalition government. https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/80087/sage-guidance.pdf

I despise Cummings but not sure how influential he has been in the response to Covid-19 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-52421744

One good thing about the current government is moving away from military campaign terms such as battle rhythm. I think that they have kept the dreadfully termed concept of operations.

The leaked stuff on operation Yellow Hammer, that I didn't find particularly sensitive or damaging, was good at explaining how this all works, and feeds into COBR. Can't find the document, here's the wiki entry https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Yellowhammer

[seenbeen]

Dominic Cummings is probably attending to advise Boris on the goings on since Boris is recuperating. I see Labour are demanding Cummings is barred from the SAGE meetings...of course they are!

[JohnL]

As SAGE is secret, TV is what we have to go on (If you want that to change allow us to see the minutes).

Ominous whispers and secret meetings reminds me of AIDS in the early 80s.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/coronavirus-children-illness-nhs-doctor-warning-health-alert-a9485441.html

To be honest if we start saying such as there may be multiple pathogens are out there then the conspiracy theories will become more attractive.

[seenbeen]

JohnL Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> As SAGE is secret, TV is what we have to go on (If

> you want that to change allow us to see the

> minutes).

>

> Ominous whispers and secret meetings reminds me of

> AIDS in the early 80s.

>

> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/coronavi

> rus-children-illness-nhs-doctor-warning-health-ale

> rt-a9485441.html

>

> To be honest if we start saying such as there may

> be multiple pathogens are out there then the

> conspiracy theories will become more attractive.

People need to be aware of these manifestations of the immune system especially since early on we were led to believe that young people do not get covid19 seriously etc. Also the government do not want to precipitate mass hysteria.

There is still no vaccination against HIV btw- just great advances in treatments

[malumbu]

There's a good case for government to be more open. Post coalition it feels less so. But no conspiracy as far as I can tell. The Guardian ran a non-story, and confused flu pandemic with emerging infectious disease. Far easier to plan for the former.

The Open Government initiative was a good step forward - I thought that this was Blair but actually it was the Coalition. But like 'Big Society' now confined to the national archives. Both were the right idea.

And a final comment is seeing BoJo back in front of the camera he seems to have adopted a presidential role, with nobody being able to fully deputise in his absence. Don't think this is a good thing, with all the background noise that it led to eg on apparent government lack of thinking about relaxing lockdown. I'm sure there was a lot of thinking.

[TE44]

Seenbeen,manifestations of immune system, is not a new idea. Most people who suffer from auto immune disease are aware. If you mean in regards to the virus, until there has been

A connection that seperates these symptoms from other on going cases still undiagnosed which have also been seen in adults, regarding vasculitis and other similiar symptoms. Many people not being given a diagnosis. If diagnosing these problems have been difficult in the past, It would be good to be alerted to the differences berween these similiar symptoms, especially when it

Is so difficult to come up with a diagnosis.

[dbboy]

Don't you think the Government are doing the best they can?

It can't be easy dealing with this pandemic, which is not just national but global. It's very easy to sit on the edge, pass judgement, pick holes, slag those off who are working hard to overcome the virus and try to reduce the number who are dying as a result.

James O'Brien on LBC this morning did his three hour phone it, it was totally depressing, at every opportunity he was taking pot shots at the Government.

What do you think any other Party would do differently?

[KidKruger]

The impression I get from JoB on LBC is that he sees inconsistencies and malpractice in the way the Govt is handling the situation and, importantly, misinformation at daily briefings with limited opportunity by the press to challenge and interrogate.

Just saying 'well any Govt would probably do the same/no better' doesn't really address his concerns.

[TE44]

Dbboy, it seems to becoming more acceptable to not question any contradictions, even when things no longer make sense. You have not added anything to the thread regarding the scientific advice which all I was saying, was it was not clear. I have tried to support parents going through the nightmare of this illness, which has same symptoms as the conditions we are being alerted to. with there child

for just over one year. I am struggling to see the link with symptoms that are related to an already hard to understand illness.

Now that may equal in your mind your response.

You have the right to not question even that which you do not understand, if that brings you to believe you are a person who understands the government are doing there best, I do not have a problem with that, I neither have a problem what you assume about me for expressing my views. The right to respond is welcomed.

[Effra]

Questioning the government about managing the pandemic is something we are all entitled to do in this democracy.

What some of us find farcical is the political opportunism by Labour whereby they continually pressurise Govt to come up with a detailed plan for ending lockdown - without issuing any plan of their own.

If Labour want to lead the country some day they should formulate a plan, publish it and let population evaluate it. It's akin to the dithering Corbyn did over the EU debate.

It's a case of put up or shut up!

[seenbeen]

TE44 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Seenbeen,manifestations of immune system, is not a

> new idea. Most people who suffer from auto immune

> disease are aware. If you mean in regards to the

> virus, until there has been

> A connection that seperates these symptoms from

> other on going cases still undiagnosed which have

> also been seen in adults, regarding vasculitis and

> other similiar symptoms. Many people not being

> given a diagnosis. If diagnosing these problems

> have been difficult in the past, It would be good

> to be alerted to the differences berween these

> similiar symptoms, especially when it

> Is so difficult to come up with a diagnosis.

Most people are not aware of most manifestations of the immune system mostly due to the innate immune system at the beginning of an infection. For example my young son was exhibiting symptoms of appendicitis so we took him to A and E...it turned out to be mesenteric adenitis- inflammation of lymph nodes in his abdomen....these days it is best to err on the side of caution as covid19 is about.

[seenbeen]

dbboy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Don't you think the Government are doing the best

> they can?

>

> It can't be easy dealing with this pandemic, which

> is not just national but global. It's very easy to

> sit on the edge, pass judgement, pick holes, slag

> those off who are working hard to overcome the

> virus and try to reduce the number who are dying

> as a result.

>

> James O'Brien on LBC this morning did his three

> hour phone it, it was totally depressing, at every

> opportunity he was taking pot shots at the

> Government.

>

> What do you think any other Party would do

> differently?

Sounds par for the course for him. He is a great disseminator of fake news most of the time anyway.

[wordsworth]

I have a lot of time for James O'Brien.

[seenbeen]

wordsworth Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I have a lot of time for James O'Brien.

He's got a lot of time for himself.

[KidKruger]

Funny thing about JoB on LBC, regarding Covid19, he's just asking logical questions about why we are in current situation, how it happened and where the boo-boos were.

Seeing as UK is in an avoidable situation, has suffered more deaths than necessary, has had no coherent plan now for weeks, front-line staff have limited PPE (or 'FEEL' they don't have enough PPE, if you listen to Priti Patel - that's right, those staff may just be imagining it!), has had no lockdown, people are associating freely in public, I think that's fair enough.

One may not like JoB (he can grate with self-grandiosement), but please point out his mistruths (as you see them).

[malumbu]

I've given the government the benefit of the doubt for the last number of weeks but the more I understand the less I believe this. KK has come up with a number of relevant points. Listening to some the experts - the loss of regional response capability with the disbanding of the government offices and strategic health authorities, the failure to monitor at ports of entry, and the failure to prioritise testing for all front line staff, I expect are all serious failures. As well as delays in getting our act together.

I believe not having a strategy for those returning from risky areas in March, such as China, Italian ski resorts was a further massive failure. Other counties worked out the main routes of infection and hit this through testing and/or isolation. Stopping transmission from our hospitals, care homes and hospices through locking down and testing, rather them being a major domestic source of infection, is another significant factor.

Anyway fine to say this in hindsight and you may question the wisdom of throwing rocks at the government. But there again I could pub the blame on those of us who switched to the Tories in 2010 because of the doubling of the threshold ob death duty, or Ed Mlliband standing against his brother, or bring Brexit into the equation.

All food for thought.

[Blah Blah]

Response as the pandemic hits is one thing, preparedness for the scenario of a pandemic is another. On the former there is room for debate, on the latter none.

In spite of an in depth exercise and assessment of the real threat of a global pandemic a few years ago, the government did not address the recommendations, or the areas found lacking from that exercise. For example, it never built up a stockpile of surgical gowns, even though the report apparently identified that as one area in need of addressing. The rumour is that funding for pandemic preparations was funded into no deal Brexit preparations.

Who knows what the truth is, but I suspect this will all come out in a subsequent inquiry. There will be real pressure on government to publish any relevant reports, although we are still waiting for the Russia report to be published etc, so transparency I suspect, won't be high in this government's list of priorities, and there may well be need for legal action once again.