Palestinian lives matter

[malumbu]

I think that the west created the problem and has a role in solving this. It's not a one way street of anti-Israel propaganda, Israel is illegally occupying lands and is supporting/encouraging/implicit in criminal activity. That said you shouldn't be blinkered or assume everything is black and white. You'd also have to bring in the wider situation in the middle East, particularly Saudi and Iran. And a shame more moderate, progressive forces aren't more prominent in Israel.

[????]

Agreed, so posting propaganda from the Mintpress, a website reticent on its initial funding and a long term supporter of Putin and Assad should be challenged

[????]

Besides which there was a time when some of the Lounge was about debating different views and ideas. All Chick does is post links to anti-Israel stories, some of very dodgy provenance, there's no debate or argument just a drip drip of anti-Israel links. Personally I don't think it should be allowed and isn't what this forum is about (or used to be) but I'm not a moderator.

[malumbu]

I don't like people posting links without some discussion of what this is about, more often than not I don't bother to open them as I think that this is a lazy way of debating. I get even more grumpy about poorly titled threads! But I am in a minority.

Back to the earlier post - pictures of kids being taken away by soldiers isn't great for Israel's image. OK so we had some pretty hardline policing the other day at the vigil, and the world's biggest democracy (US) at times is hardly a beacon of virtue. But this was a video of a real event and don't see an issue with it being shared whether it is from a website of disrepute or not.

[diable rouge]

malumbu Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> But this was a video of a real event

> and don't see an issue with it being shared

> whether it is from a website of disrepute or not.

Isn't the problem here that when something is shared from a disreputable and/or shadily funded site, it quickly leads onto other stuff that might not be 'real'. It's why so many people end up getting lost down rabbit holes. By limking/sharing an item to these sites your inadvertently promoting/advocating all the shady/conspiracy nonsense they try to peddle...

[malumbu]

I expect you and I are pretty aware of bias's, fake news and the like on the web. I can't start any conversation with "according to the Guardian". I may say that I've read something in it, or wherever. But of course we all like/select articles/organisations that support/confirm our views and it can be easy to lose objectivity or worse still as you point out, get drawn into some dark spaces.

Do others have a a view? Common Cat, why the silence?!

[Chick]

???? Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Besides which there was a time when some of the

> Lounge was about debating different views and

> ideas. All Chick does is post links to anti-Israel

> stories, some of very dodgy provenance, there's no

> debate or argument just a drip drip of anti-Israel

> links. Personally I don't think it should be

> allowed and isn't what this forum is about (or

> used to be) but I'm not a moderator.

Pointing out human rights abuses by the state of Israel, the IDF and illegal settlers isn?t anti Israeli propaganda any more than criticising South African apartheid was anti South Africa propaganda.

I also post links from Jews for Justice for Palestine, The Washington Post, Channel four news, the Independent, in future I?ll include Human Rights Watch and B?Tselem when relevant.

If you want to debate the rights and wrongs of Hamas you can start your own thread.

[Chick]

More news of Israeli apartheid:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/apr/09/the-us-media-is-touting-israels-covid-recovery-but-occupied-palestinians-are-left-out?fbclid=IwAR3GXB31-C0Y1PA9PIEaBGf6qYmSG5BsNxv4ZnKte5UrR3jsqtFaarbsvGI

[Blah Blah]

To be fair, details matter. There are grey areas (shaped by ideological politics) and then there are areas that are clear breaches of what is acceptable. To illustrate - annexation of the Gaza Strip in any measure is not acceptable. Extension of any part of the Israeli border in any form, is not acceptable.

So this is where I sit on Israel (as a left leaning centrist). Israel has the right to exist. She also has the right to defend herself from Hamas led terrorism. She does not however, have the right to use any of that to expand the borders given to her, and that is the issue here. Illegal settlements (not my words but those of the UN) that no-one can challenge (because she is backed by a nuclear superpower) have led to an idea that Israel can annex a third of the Gaza Strip. Why? Because when someone pushes at the boundaries of acceptability, and no-one physically objects.......you know how it goes.

No-one should be attacking Chick or anyone for having this thread. It is an issue that is clearly important to him/her, and there is a sensible discussion to be had. And to be fair to Chick, you don't have to scroll back too far to find him/her acknowledging I made a fair point when challenging something he/she posted.

[Chick]

Human Rights Watch and B?Tselem declare Israel as an apartheid state:

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/4/27/israel-uses-apartheid-to-subjugate-palestinians-hrw-report?fbclid=IwAR1IFTCj8FiXFKKe9QOPTlD7oIuzuOAXHZG1oW0ITKet95Fuv-kKKy-tZi0

[Chick]

More terror from Jerusalem:

https://www.aljazeera.com/gallery/2021/5/5/palestinians-arrested-at-protest-over-jerusalem-evictions?fbclid=IwAR1RhOCT9yV06AEkWaMWkRz4pdzFOazUuBh96OzR6a5z-cS4WWvgtfrzkFY

[Chick]

March to the Israeli Embassy this Saturday May 15th:

https://www.palestinecampaign.org/events/march-to-the-israeli-embassy/

[Blah Blah]

I passed through the one in Whitehall last night. Thousands of people there and very lively. Very serious situation that seems to be escalating by the hour.

[malumbu]

I'd like to know more about this and views of others. So this is when an immovable force meets an unstoppable object. Both hardline traditional/extreme authorities. But asymmetric that one side has vastly superior technology and is effectively propped up by the US.

Aggressions by both sides are looked on as war crimes. Death and destruction will be much greater in Gaza. There seems to be no middle ground or compromise from either side, which I expect has popular support.

Personally Israel should withdraw from occupied territories (and meet all the UN resolutions), remove settlers and try to build some bridges with their Palestinian residents. Their human rights record is something not to be proud of. But I can still not rationalise this when their is an extremist regime in Palestine.

Sorry this is all a bit simplistic, and I should read up on the subject (beyond Wiki) but perhaps others can explain things to me objectively.

I visited Israel in the late 90s meeting Palestinians and Jews, staying with both groups. Jerusalem was one of the most amazing cities I've been to, the old city was a medieval melting pot. I understand new developments have blighted the City somewhat.

[Alan Medic]

This is a couple of years old I believe, but worth watching. Irish TD (MP) speaking to Israeli ambassador. Thanks to Roger Waters of Pink Floyd for posting it.

[Blah Blah]

Expectations that Israel are planning to invade Gaza again now. It just never ends.

[redpost]

Chick Wrote:

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> Blah Blah Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > A different perspective.

> >

> >

> https://www.thejc.com/comment/opinion/is-israel-di

>

> >

> scriminating-against-palestinians-with-vaccine-1.5

>

> > 10338

>

> To be expected.

There are over 2m Israeli arabs, they are just as entitled as Israeli jews to get a vaccine and indeed get them.

[LoulaRose]

The below link will send a prewritten email to your local MP telling them to take action for Palestine. All you need to do is enter your postcode, then complete with your name and address. It takes less than a minute.

https://www.foa.org.uk/campaign/save-sheikh-jarrah/

[hpsaucey]

Thanks for posting LoulaRose.

Appalling situation.

HP

[Chick]

Thanks for posting LoulaRose. I have signed. It was a massive march very diverse and peaceful.

https://www.palestinecampaign.org/get-involved/join-renew-membership/?fbclid=IwAR3GllKtSW4LI6ZwwbB43R0aaH0ywmsDyOuOg-mGZLuq8SabgTG-iwpdV3s

From JFJFP:

https://jfjfp.com/stop-the-carnage-tell-israel-it-must-end-the-occupation-or-face-consequences/

[Chick]

An appeal from Jews For Justice For Palestine:

https://mailchi.mp/1d8671a13173/reminder-of-agm-20-january-10899990?e=9ebda826d3

[TheCat]

Not the best week for the BBC it seems....

[DuncanW]

Wow, that's horrific.

Looks like she's a locally based contributor.

It's not great optics for sure, but I have no doubt the BBC will sever all ties with her. Not sure what more they could do in these circumstances.

[Alan Medic]

Seems to have deleted her account.

[Chick]

More trouble from Jerusalem:

https://www.aljazeera.com/gallery/2021/6/22/israeli-police-attack-palestinian-protesters-in-sheikh-jarrah?fbclid=IwAR1i_5FUUmXQvCtAgXiW8JuQ0u-KuO9sIKSzfThPTANq5u9FHt2bWFH2rc8

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jun/24/amnesty-catalogue-of-violations-by-israeli-police-against-palestinians