Aylesham redevelopment petition

[chris-a]

Saw nearly 2000 signatures on the petition already, so clearly lots of people agree.

What the petition was arguing for is a real consultation, which doesn't gloss over things like how affordable the flats would be, how transport links will be affected, what green space will be created, impact on nearby residents etc. I inputted into the consultation in February but it was pretty daft (basically "do you want to see more housing, more jobs, more shops, or better transport?" - as if they are mutually exclusive).

If the community wants what is a really quite massive development then a real consultation will discover that. Something really great could be done with that site that will make Peckham a better place for 100+years, I don't think it's a case of being anti-development, it's anti-bad-development

[TheArtfulDogger]

I'm curious

People are saying "it's not what we want" but I've not seen anyone say what it is that would make this work

"Scale" what do you want?

"Affordable housing" great, but how much of a development needs to be affordable and what's the price point ?

"Height" great, but how high is too high ? If too low it will change the number of affordable houses on offer !

"Nature" again what do you want ?

Eileen, you are leading this charge and want a meaningful discussion but lay your cards on the table and say what it is you actually want to see there rather than "don't want this" there has to be a starting point for the discussion and engagement otherwise a compromise can't be made.

My twopennith worth, don't ask the impossible otherwise nothing will happen and the opportunity will be lost.

[Blah Blah]

I think it is very clear what Eileen is asking for Artful. A meaningful consultation where local people can explore viable ideas that serve the local area best, as opposed to yet another get rich quick scheme for a corporate developer. There are more than enough examples of bad deals for Londoners that this and other councils have entered into.

[TheArtfulDogger]

Blah, that's the process but what are the actual parameters that are acceptable for development?

Like I said I'm not asking for people to say we don't want this and we want a consultation , I'm asking what would the development need to contain and look like as a starting point of a meaniful debate with the developer

[Tosca]

Following Eileen's message, I'm attaching an A4 version of the flyer for anyone who would like to put one in their window.

[Blah Blah]

That's a conversation for the consultation Artful. This thread is not the consultation.

[TheArtfulDogger]

Typical politician style answer

You can't say what you do want but it's not this

If there is no minimum acceptable level then how can you know when you have either got what you want or reached a fair compromise ?

The consultation process needs a starting point from both sides, yet all I'm hearing is "not this"

Oh well if you don't know you don't know but be brave enough to admit it, don't spin it

[Eileen]

TheArtfulDogger Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Blah, that's the process but what are the actual

> parameters that are acceptable for development?

>

> Like I said I'm not asking for people to say we

> don't want this and we want a consultation , I'm

> asking what would the development need to contain

> and look like as a starting point of a meaniful

> debate with the developer

That will come out of the consultation!

* Please sign the petition for a meaningful consultation here: http://www.change.org/PECKHAMVOICES

[TheArtfulDogger]

Eileen Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> TheArtfulDogger Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Blah, that's the process but what are the

> actual

> > parameters that are acceptable for development?

>

> >

> > Like I said I'm not asking for people to say we

> > don't want this and we want a consultation ,

> I'm

> > asking what would the development need to

> contain

> > and look like as a starting point of a meaniful

> > debate with the developer

>

> That will come out of the consultation!

>

> * Please sign the petition for a meaningful

> consultation here:

> http://www.change.org/PECKHAMVOICES

Oh come on Eileen, you must have a Peckham Vision.

Don't just repeat the same, I don't want this, I want a consultation.

What do YOU personally want to see?

What's your starting point in a consultation ?

How can you possibly know you've achieved you minimum requirements or a workable compromise ?

What's the vision of Peckham Vision ? There must be one otherwise the organisation name is a travesty !

I can't in all honesty add weight to your petition until I know what you want because it may not be anywhere near what I want (inward investment and the chance for Peckham to be an amazing town centre again)

So I ask again and I hope you don't do the usual vague politician answer because it won't cut the mustard.

[Eileen]

Artful D said: What's the vision of Peckham Vision ? There must be one otherwise the organisation name is a travesty !

-------------------------------------

Peckham Vision website: https://www.peckhamvision.org/wiki/Peckham_Vision:About says ?The vision is to develop an integrated approach to Peckham town centre as essential to a thriving and sustainable social and commercial centre, and to contribute to Peckham being a good place for all in which to live, work and visit.?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

[TheArtfulDogger]

I asked what the vision for the development is, not for your mission statement.

This lack of clarity over what you want is frankly making me wonder if you are being deliberately stupid, and we all know you're not.

So again I ask what is Peckham vision's vision for the Aylesham centre development site ?

Of course if you haven't got one, then as I stated before , how will you know when you have reached a point where you are happy with the outcome?

And saying its for the consultation process just makes it obvious you haven't got an idea and won't be happy regardless of what's presented.

So please give a straight answer to the question as I'm sure other people are just as interested.

[Eileen]

Artful D said: how will you know when you have reached a point where you are happy with the outcome?

----------------------------

Dear Artful D: This campaign is not about a specific 'outcome' in terms of the development. It is about achieving an informed consultation process which enables many people to give informed comments. We support a probing open questioning to seek good information and discussion to hear a variety of views before taking views about development plans. Of course if you do not support that approach then you will not support the petition. More than 2000 have now shown their support. For those who wish to do likewise here is the link: http://www.change.org/PECKHAMVOICES

[TheArtfulDogger]

So the answer I can ascertain from your clever wordsmith answers is, and correct me with an honest answer of what you want from the development if I'm wrong

"You don't want what's proposed, you want a consultation but you have no baseline for what you do want"

Hardly a visionary Eileen.

That approach is liable to result in the developers pulling out with the loss of investment in Peckham at a time when investment is like pixie dust and potentially, with the way retail is heading, leaving what should be an amazing town centre (retail footprint wise) struggling for decades to come.

The council will possibly never have funds again for investing in our town centres and I for one would be happier if Peckham Vision lived up to its name and had a real plan for how Peckham should be rather than an aspirational mission statement.

Yours

Mr. Artful Dogger

[Blah Blah]

Give it up Artful. You are being deliberately provocative now. Peckham Vision are asking for a better consultation. They don't answer to you.

[TheArtfulDogger]

Blah, a consultation is a process to achieve a compromise but without knowing what is acceptable to Peckham vision /Eileen then how do you know when that compromise has been reached?

Eileen has a track record for objecting to oppertunities for the town centre but not giving solutions or working with developers.

The tram is a classic example, she objected to the terminus and depot being in Peckham on various grounds including that the depot would see shards of metal and sparks in the air of Peckham when they ground the wheels. During that consultation she didn't engage with TfL or cross river to find a compromise and as such Peckham lost the opportunity for an eco friendly transport, jobs, development and inward investment.

We all want the best for Peckham but without saying what that is (size, no of properties, unit cost...) then Peckham vision's objections seem to be objections for the sake of it.

All I'm asking for is Peckham Vision to actually say what the minimum acceptable option with this development is so that there is a starting point for the consultation.

[Blah Blah]

A consultation is a meaningful exercise in consideration of a wide range of views and impact analysis. That has not been done as Peckham Vision have clearly outlined. Inviting those who agree with that to sign a petition does not require Eileen or any other individual to say what they would contribute to a meaningful consultation at this stage. That should be simple enough to understand.

Then you then go on to confirm that your real aim is to personally attack Eileen, over discussing the principle of the petition itself. Where it not for Eileen, Peckham High Street would have been turned into a huge bypass decades ago. Have a think about that. It is up to you to get involved in consultations if you want to counter other views. Attacking Peckham Vision and specifically Eileen for what they do is pointless.

The tram depot was always a bad idea. The size alone, with it's proximity to a dense residential area, among other things. If you look at the detail around at the time, there was a blatant lack of consultation and a stitched up planning process. The law provides for objection to that sort of practise, so you can't attack anyone for getting together to use that freedom. Besides, as a project, it was never a goer anyway. There was never any money for it.

[Peckhamgatecrasher]

Nothing to do with the debate, but may I just say, ArtfulDogger, how wonderful to see that you slipped in "Come on, Eileen". Top marks!

[jules b]

TheArtfulDogger Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Blah, a consultation is a process to achieve a

> compromise but without knowing what is acceptable

> to Peckham vision /Eileen then how do you know

> when that compromise has been reached?

>

> Eileen has a track record for objecting to

> oppertunities for the town centre but not giving

> solutions or working with developers.

>

> The tram is a classic example, she objected to the

> terminus and depot being in Peckham on various

> grounds including that the depot would see shards

> of metal and sparks in the air of Peckham when

> they ground the wheels. During that consultation

> she didn't engage with TfL or cross river to find

> a compromise and as such Peckham lost the

> opportunity for an eco friendly transport, jobs,

> development and inward investment.

>

> We all want the best for Peckham but without

> saying what that is (size, no of properties, unit

> cost...) then Peckham vision's objections seem to

> be objections for the sake of it.

>

> All I'm asking for is Peckham Vision to actually

> say what the minimum acceptable option with this

> development is so that there is a starting point

> for the consultation.

Artful dodger, this is not about what Eileen (or Peckham Vision for that matter) wants, as Eileen has already pointed out. The whole point is that we don?t yet know what local people want because there has not been adequate consultation. There have been various local groups who have tried to work with the developers for the past 3 years; one I was involved with got over 5000 signatures in support of a charter with specific asks including meaningful and on-going consultation. Unfortunately the developer instead went away and created a scheme which does not meet the aspirations of the charter, particularly in regards to consultation, which is why we are now in this situation. The group of people who have formed Aylesham Community Action are from various backgrounds and groups and are calling for meaningful consultation and positive engagement so that the development Which will have a huge impact on our town centre and lives, works for all of us!

I can?t imagine why anyone would think that was a bad idea.

[Eileen]

Hi everyone ? keeping you up to date with progress on the petition: at last count it stands at 2,792, and continues to rise as the information about the plans and the August consultation spreads. So there is still an opportunity to sign and help support the request for a meaningful discussion with local people about the plans: http://www.change.org/PECKHAMVOICES

This is the local town centre for anyone who lives or works within a few miles of Peckham, whatever postcode we are in! So even if you are in SE22 or other nearby postcodes it is still your local town centre! Please do sign the petition if you would like to help achieve a meaningful consultation.

Some media reports:

* https://londonnewsonline.co.uk/dont-damage-peckhams-diverse-neighbourhood/

* https://londonnewsonline.co.uk/anger-at-1000-home-peckham-skyscraper-which-will-block-views-and-take-six-years-to-finish/

* https://www.residentadvisor.net/news/73554