light the blue touch paper...

[*Bob*]

I'm still flying the flag, people.

[Jah Lush]

Fecking students! I know, trust me I know. I still fondly remember The Young Ones.

[*Bob*]

I was hoping to avoid repaying my student loan by reaching however-many-years-after it is before they give up trying to get it back.

The plan worked worked well for ten years or so. It was buying the overpriced house in ED which finally did for me.

[david_carnell]

My problem with the BBCs approach to this is their deliberate use of two terms that are incredibly hard to define.

White? Compared to whom? Do white people really exist? Are Eastern Europeans the same type of white as British white? Are English white different from Scottish white?

Working-class? Does this really exist in the same way as it was orginally meant. How many people still really do unskilled menial labour? Does data-input count? What about other white-collar admin jobs? Can you move from one class to another?

The whole idea is incredibly subjective.

One of the programs highlights the plight of ex-miners from Easington (the "whitest" town in Britain) whose livelihoods were ripped from them, along with the guts of their communities, under the Thatcher government. Are these people representative of a nationwide identity? Unlikely. No immigrants live or work there, so they can't be to blame surely? Trust in government is low in these communities but is it any wonder. Most have been unemployed for nigh on 20 years. But unemployment due to restructuring of industrial sectors doesn't merely affect the white working-class (WWC). As Sean pointed out, IT outsourcing abroad is the modern parrallel.

[SteveT]

My ex business partner recently came up to retirement age and expected to receive his full ?85 or however much it is.

He found that it was light not the full amount. Apparantly he had missed 6 or 8 payments in his twenties.

He complained that if he had come from abroad as an immigrant he would get the ?85. Er no you would get ?120 said the official.

[blinder999]

david_carnell Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> working-class (WWC). As Sean pointed out, IT

> outsourcing abroad is the modern parrallel.

Personally I don't think the comparison is a fair one at all - mining was a very well-paid job for life for working-class people. The (probably inevitable) end of the pit meant no more work for whole villages. The end of mining, and the decline of manufacturing in this country, represented a seismic shift for the UK - and the 'working classes' were all out on their ear.

This perhaps explains the confusion about what 'working class' means now - as the jobs which in effect helped to define 'working class' no longer exist in this country.

I don't think the partially-successful outsourcing of a few thousand IT jobs is having anything like this impact.

[????]

The NHS is nearly at breaking point in London, - I, you, we, taxpayers pay significant amounts (seriously significant amounts)for this laughably 'free' service, most health professionals at all grades will honestly tell you that the whole system is overloaded with non-british born claimants...I await abuse, but that's the truth un PC as it may be

[SteveT]

It is also overloaded with non British born employees too.

[mockney piers]

As usual the daily mash raises the level of debate.

more or less spot on though ;-) http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=775&Itemid=59

[*Bob*]

The Mash wins. End of debate? Here's hoping.

[*Bob*]

On second read I think that's the best 'Mash' for quite a long time.

[david_carnell]

mockney piers Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> As usual the daily mash raises the level of

> debate.

>

> more or less spot on though ;-)

> http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/index.php?option=com

> _content&task=view&id=775&Itemid=59

*doffs cap*

That, sir, is about the most eloquent argument I've heard in a long time. In satire we trust.

[lozzyloz]

Excellent.

[Brendan]

Ah I have missed the Daily Mash while in Africa (about the only bloody thing I missed to be honest.)

Your sense of satire is Britain?s greatest gift to this world.

[mockney piers]

It should be made a national treasure.

Totally off topic but this one had me in absolute stitches yesterday

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/environment/i'll-be-just-fine%2c-says-planet-20080306774/

"The Earth spoke out after a series of books, television programmes and environmental campaigns urged people to do everything in their power to 'Save the Planet'.

Earth, 4,000,000,000, said last night: "I'll be absolutely fine, seriously. I might get a bit warmer and a bit wetter, but to be honest, that actually sounds quite nice.

"Try living through an ice age. Pardon my French, but it's absolutely fucking freezing."

[lozzyloz]

My parents came to these shores at the end of the 50's and within a couple of years had met, fallen in love, married and had me (not necessarily in that order). I can still remember from my early years how landlords would slam the door on a mixed race family and going to a suburban school where if you had darker skin you were considered a wog or a paki. To complicate matters one parent was Roman Catholic the other Muslim and they sent me to a CofE school! I always found it bizarre that contrary to my experiences in the playground it was the white side of the family that were more accepting of the coloured side.

How times have changed. My eldest son of Italian, Guyanese, Chinese, Indian and Iranian extraction is more likely to get picked on because he's wearing the wrong brand or logo!

[atila the gooner]

Do people find that they are embarrased or uncomfortably with admitting they are white and proud of it, in the same way that someone would say that they black and proud of it, or is it too outrageous of me to even ask such a question? I hope not because I do see why there should be a problem.

[mockney piers]

Where's the pride in being white?

It's just what I am. It's hardly a great achievement by me is it?

Unless I'm being smug about my wonderful sun-avoidance techniques or something.

Pride in my heritage? As I count British (via the carribean) Spanish and German among my near forebears then there is much to be proud of and quite a bit to be ashamed of in all of them.

[lozzyloz]

Why should someone's colour be something to be proud of as if it's a badge? Surely it's WHO you are. Then people would be less inclined to fight because somebody says that white is better than black or whatever. I don't feel my colour is something that I need to be proud of and say "Hey, look at me". But if I'm in a situation where a group are making their colour a reason to discriminate against me I feel uncomfortable. Same applies to religion, gender, creed, sexuality and football team.

[*Bob*]

The reasons why you hear people being upfront about being 'black and proud' can be traced back to when they were 'black and f**ked over'. Not that long ago.

Personally I wince at 'apologies for slavery' and the like, but I think it would take a very stubborn person not to take into account the days of slavery and empire - in some way or another.

[atila the gooner]

So it's ok to say black and proud but not white and proud?

[lozzyloz]

But was Bobby Seals actions a better way than Ghandi's?

[*Bob*]

No, it's perfectly fine to say you're white and proud. If you want to. It doesn't make you an evil BNP flag-waver at all.

Personally, I can't think of why being white would make me proud - which doesn't mean I'm ashamed of being white of nuffink that that - I just honestly can't think of any reasons why it would.

[Brendan]

I am white but I don?t in any way see myself as the same as other ?white? people who are British, French, American, Russian or whatever. And Africa, as an example, is even more culturally diverse than Europe.

I am extremely proud of who I am and who my forefathers were but it has to do with what these people did not the colour of their skins. There are too many people with the same colour skin whose histories and cultures I do not share and in many cases would not be proud of.

The issue of black or white ?pride? arises in circumstances where people are discriminated against because of colour of their skins. This suddenly unifies everyone with that skin colour.

[mockney piers]

I guess if you've lived in a country that effectively had apartheid for many years and you were (at least in some areas) made to feel ashamed of being black, then yeah, assert your pride in being what you are (plus it make s for a catchy song).

It's less relevant in today's society* than it was, but still has some relevance as long as discrimination continues to exist.

White and proud? I dunno, are white people being forced to be ashamed of their colour or suffer discrimination for it? I guess that's what this debate is all about. I'd be inclined to say no.

There is definitely a vilification of the white working classes in some areas of the media (or little Britain) so maybe "I'm Working Class and Proud" has more validity.

*I'm obvously referring to the US and the struggle for civil rights, but it definitely has resonance here too.