20 MPH Limit Lordship Lane

[DJKillaQueen]

Average speed cameras don't work james for the following reason. If a vehicle breaks the limit on one stretch of road and then sits in traffic on another, then the average doesn't show a speeding offence. And just as a sat nav warns of an approaching speed camera, it is possible to fit a device that shows average speed (some sats navs do it). So the motorist with disregard will use technology just as they do now.

[El Pibe]

Hug'not

I've one of those trip computer thingies in my car and no journey in london has ever exceed an average of 15mph.

Trffic lights have far more impact on journey time than speed limits.

[Annasfield]

Of course it's a residential road.

I live on Lordship lane and would definitely vote for a 20mph speed limit. I'm guessing if you asked the residents to vote they would say the same. Moaning that it will take you a bit longer to get to work is quite frankly selfish.

[DJKillaQueen]

Just because there are houses along parts of it doesn't define it as a residential road. Many A and B roads have some residential dwelling's on them. When someone moves into a house on a main road they understand that as such there will be lots of traffic.

Moaning that you don't like cars driving perfectly safely at 30mpr (which the vast majority of drivers do) is also selfish.

[polla2256]

20 30 40 or 50 your lucky to sustain anything more than 15 on lordship lane. Its a none issue.

[bonaome]

James Barber Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> The survey I was assured shows drivers going

> faster than 20mph day and night.

Isn't the speed limit is 30 on that stretch of the A2216?

[uncleglen]

The problem of speeding drivers is perennial and is based upon what these people have between their ears so the speed limit is self-imposed to some extent. The extra distractions that people have in their cars, phones, cd players etc. means that drivers are distracted more frequently as well (if they allow themselves to be, that is). The only solution would be much harsher penalties or compulsory black boxes in the car.

People do speed on LL especially at night.

[likansuk269]

if the traffic is to be slowed down to 20mph then it would take some people longer to get to college or school where they teach you how to spell properly..perhaps then they will be able to spell crashes properly....if a councillor cannot spell correctly then we are all in trouble........ITS CRASHES......NOT CRACHES....DUH

[????]

it's

[keane]

It's not a non issue - as cars approach the lights at L lane, Barry road junction coming down with the Catholic Church & library on your left they are frequently travelling at high speed especially if the lights are green. There are lots of pedestrians and children at this point with st Anthony's and the library right there. On this stretch cars are often going at well over 40 mph. At night even more.

[Earl Aelfheah]

"The proposal is for 20mph between Goose Green and Melbourne/Whateley Roads."

.... So wouldn't effect The Plough junction (where it may serve a purpose).

[DJKillaQueen]

Funny that Keane because I drive along that stretch all the time, day and night and have never seen any vehicle travelling at well over 40+ speeds. Of course, if you have some speed gun data to support that claim let's see it.

[StraferJack]

DJKQ

Put the speedgun down for one moment and spend a bit of time crossing those junctions, and without the benefit of a speedgun, say those cars are travelling within a speed limit

People are quite capable of hearing an engine speed, visually observing car motion and comparing it with other ?normal? car speeds.

That doesn?t preclude some from overstating the objectove speed but it?s only stubborness to say there isn?t a speeding problem on some/many of the roads

[camberlou]

Driving south down LL yesterday about 10am, just past the Plough junction, a car overtook me when I was doing about 25mph. I couldn't put a figure on it, but they were doing way more than 30mph.

The thing I notice is that cars seem to be always either accelerating or decelerating rather than moving at steady speed. Having been lurking on this thread for a while, I've been trying out driving at 20mph. It would be much more comfortable and I'm more aware of pedestrians and make more eye contact other road users (whether on foot, on bike or in another vehicle). What stops it being more comfortable, is having people sitting right on my tail, hooting or overtaking.

It's not about good drivers or bad drivers. It's about people in a hurry, paying more attention to where they want to be than to the people around them.

[Dapacouly]

I live circa Goodrich rd - car are very often speeding in that area.

I am not in favor of a 20mph speed limit but making sure drivers stick close to 30 would be good. There are various ways to do that: more red lights who trigger on speed, zebra crossings, narrowing the road at some intervals, small bumps (not sure this is even feasibly there), and getting a policing once a month or something,

[Penguin68]

It would be much more comfortable

Different cars are optimised around different speeds - ideally you want to be travelling 'normally' in 4th gear - which the car drives most comfortably in (5th is cruising at motorway speeds) - some cars are unhappy about travelling at 20mph in 4th, and would prefer 3rd - which is an accelleration gear, if you see what I mean.

Judging speed again is quite difficult, particularly differential speeds. Imagine you are standing still and think how quickly someone walks away from you (normal walking speed) - that's about 4mph - if you are being overtaken, how quickly does the over-taker get away from you - how many multiples of walking speed? And once you are overtaken, do they slow back down to be 'just' outpacing you - in which case they may be no more than walking speed faster once they have decellarated from taking over.

I have occasionally (on motorways) been over-taken by a car I imagined was going very fast, but if I speed up to match his pace, I often find it is only 10mph or less faster than my speed when over-taken.

Of course, there are speed merchants on residential and local streets, but often the ones you think are speeding may be, but not by that much. Considering average vehicle speeds through London have been 12-15 mph since 1900 (pre car) our perception of urban speed is often clouded by our experience.

[James Barber]

Traffic surveys have been undertaken on Lordship Lane between its junctions with Barry Road and Friern Road.

http://maps.southwark.gov.uk/connect/index.jsp?tooltip=yes

Sept 2012 southbound mean av. 26.1mph speed 85th precentile 31.3mph 10,044 vehicles per day on averahge.

Northbound 24.9mph mean av. 30.9mph 85th percentile 8,495 vehicles per day.

Very similar data from traffic counts Sept 2010 and Sept 2011.

So it is entirely likely that proportion as suggested will be travelling at 40mph or more.

[Penguin68]

The speeds quoted (Barry to Friern) are for a strip of road without shops, without lights (after Barry), and without (much) pedestrian traffic - this also falls outside the proposed 20mph area - some speeds may be above 40mph - but the figures quoted do not (statistically) evidence that (40mph speeds are not inconsistent with the numbers quoted - neither are they predicated by them).

Hence I cannot see that these figures are at all helpful in this particular debate - which is about a 20mph limit between Goose Green and Whately (if I recall correctly) - where there are shops and pedestrians (which would put the case for) and serried ranks of lights which tend to hold traffic (whilst pedestrians are about) to well below 20mph - which would make the limit otiose when it is 'needed' and pointless and an intrusion when it isn't.

[Dapacouly]

I'd agree with Penguin68 in that the 20mph limit between Goose Green and Whateley is probably already enforced.

The problem is more between Whateley and Crystal Palace Road. Many cars there clearly do not follow speed limits, nor do buses (coming downhill in particular!) which is very scary when one tries to get into Lordship Lane (or out of a driveway in my case). Crossroads with Pellat, Hebert and Goodrich rds have no visibility and there have been quite a few accidents there because peeps on Lordship Lane are just going too fast. Goodrich in particular has to be a black spot: I've personally seen at least 5 accidents there in the past 6 months so there must have been many more. It'd be interesting to commission a speed survey there.

[James Barber]

Hi P68,

A set of posts had talked about speeding cars close to Plough Lane. I've poijnted out the nearest traffic count to that location where many would be breaking or accelerating due to the traffic lights.

Indeed the 20mph proposals are further north.

Hi Dapacouly,

The worst junction along there for recorded crashes is Lordship Lane with Heber Road. Mostly pedestrians crossing the road to/from the bus stop I'd guess.

BUT by far the highest number of collissions and crashes are between Melbourne Grove and Goose Green.

[camberlou]

Penguin68 - driving in third gear at 20mph in a new Golf feels very comfortable to me, if I don't have someone on my tail "pushing" me to go faster. It may be an acceleration gear, but only if you are accelerating.

Cars may be designed to run better in 4th gear, with associated higher speeds, but people seem to be designed to withstand being hit by a car at 20mph (99% survival) much better than if hit at 40mph (65% survival). That is only fatalities, not serious injuries (DfT figures). Possibly a design flaw, but I suspect the engineers could change the design of vehicles more quickly than evolution can change the design of people.

James - the data are very interesting. Have the maps been superimposed with the collision maps?

Also (changing geographic location) - the data for southbound Lyndhurst Way are interesting. Does this mean that nearly 200 cars are reversing at approx 15mph every day (into parking spaces)? And 4 cyclists a day seems to suggest that the vast majority of cyclists do not go the wrong way down this one street.

[Penguin68]

driving in third gear at 20mph in a new Golf feels very comfortable to me - It very much depends how cars are geared - driving in third is generally less economic (more petrol used, more emissions) than driving in 4th. My point was that driving in 4th at 20mph can feel uncomfortable and juddery in some cars. I am glad you are happy with your new Golf. I don't disagree that 20mph is a better speed in residential areas than 30mph as regards the likely effects of impact with other vehicles and particularly pedestrians. My point was simply that many cars are less than happy in 4th (the optimal gear) at 20mph. You apparently drive in 3rd at that speed, and 3rd is not an optimal 'cruising' gear, for the reasons listed above.

[camberlou]

Sorry Penguin, but I don't think I'm getting your point. You say cars are not comfortable in 4th at 20mph. And that 3rd is not optimal cruising gear. What is the best gear for London driving (average speed <20 and for me, personally as above, 20mph or so)?

Not my Golf :( Sorry if I misled - I've posted recently on using hirecars and Zipcars, which are mostly new Golfs.

[Penguin68]

To clarify - some cars (not every car) will judder or struggle if you maintain 20mph in 4th gear - it is too low a speed for that gear for that car. However, 4th gear is the most economic (and offers lowest emissions) to use for 'cruising' (cars with higher gears - such as 5th, are more economic etc. to run when cruising at higher speeds, i.e. 60-70).

What this means is that 20mph, for some (often older) cars is a difficult speed to maintain comfortably, either the engine struggles (if in 4th) or it is thirstier (and dirtier) if in 3rd.

Of course you may expect for much urban driving to be moving through the gears as you slow down or accelerate (or deal with hills etc.) - but for those stretches of road where a continuous speed is possible, 20mph may not be the 'easiest' (or most economical, or cleanest, depending on your gear choice) speed to maintain. Most cars handle 30mph in 4th very easily.

The point I was trying to make, very simply, is that 20mph as a speed has clear benefits but is not a 'cost-free' - in terms of convenience or actual cost - choice - for some, but not all, cars.

[camberlou]

Ah, got it. Thanks for the clarification.