Dropped kerb application

[intexasatthe moment]

It's already illegal to park across a dropped kerb - as per Southwark's website even if there are no markings .

I believe with skips on the road you have to purchase a special permit .

FWIW apparently alongside the street policy relating to yellow lines for dropped kerbs a new protocol for planting trees has been introduced . It requires any new tree planted to have a tree pit one metre square . So that won't be possible as it will leave no pavement space for pedestrians . So no new trees can be provided on pavements .

( I'm generalising here ,no doubt the good burghers of Dulwich Village and surrounds will be ok if wider pavements exist there .)

So I'm inclined to think the dropped kerb policy is more about incompetence /lack of thinking things through than a conspiracy to bring in CPZ's .

But then I'm often naive in my thinking .

[Earl Aelfheah]

@markT yes, spot on. Ridiculous to sign over the public highway to a private household in this fashion.

[MarkT]

Is the Council?s new rule lawful? It seems to cancel an occupier?s legal right.

The Traffic Management Act 2004

86 Prohibition of parking at dropped footways etc.

?(3) The second exception is where the vehicle is parked outside residential premises by or with the consent (but not consent given for reward) of the occupier of the premises.

This exception does not apply in the case of a shared driveway.?

The Council might argue that it is not cancelling the occupier?s legal right to allow someone to park, because the new rule applies only to new applications for which the applicant has agreed to the full package including the parking restrictions. The applicant has thereby given, in advance, a blanket refusal to any potential parker as is the applicant?s right in law. It?s a sort of catch 22.

However (1) the law gives the right to allow or refuse parking not to the applicant but to the ?occupier?. What if the premises is subsequently sold or let. Can a new occupier, who has not made any agreement with the Council, disregard the double yellow line and park, or give consent to others to park, in accordance with the above law?

(2) the legal clause above uses the phrase ?outside residential premises? without definition, but I think the implication is that it relates specifically to the access over the dropped kerb ? so what about the extensions 2 metres each way? Can a private individual stop anyone parking in front of the house next door? Or pay the Council to do so? Could a group of residents collectively sue the person who paid the Council to do so?

[MarkT]

Another thought on the legal aspects. In a CPZ I think that double yellow lines are put across all dropped kerbs ? pre-existing.

AbDabs mentioned this in an earlier post on this thread, so may be able to enlighten.

Does the Council get permission from each occupier with a dropped kerb? Are there cases of such occupiers registering opposition, either specifically to that bit of double yellow or to the CPZ in general? Is there some specific legislation that covers CPZs and cancels Section 86(3)?

[AbDabs]

I can't actually see how the Council's new policy would be unlawful as the council has powers to implement parking restrictions (which includes double yellow lines, and could include a CPZ!). It wouldn't be removing anyone's 'right' as no right is actually given by the Traffic management act; it is simply that certain classes of persons or circumstances are exempted from the restrictions, which is a very different thing. No householder 'owns' the parking space in front of their house, it is just that parking is not allowed across the drop kerb so as to allow legal access to property ('legal' access is provided by the installation of a drop kerb). The statute includes the pragmatic exclusion from restrictions to the occupiers* visitors as such visitors obviously wouldn't be blocking the access (because you can get them to move immediately). But, they can only park there if there are no other restrictions, such as double yellows. When someone buys the property, they buy it as it is with whatever parking restrictions there are.

But yes, the CPZ - when this was threatened some time back we were shown plans which included double yellow lines across all drop kerbs, including existing ones. This is why I was so much against it.

*The use of the reference to an 'occupier' is, I presume, simply to exclude a landlord thinking he can allow his visitors to block a tenants legal rights of access onto their rented property.

[MarkT]

Thanks AbDabs.

I understand that the new rule is being applied only to new dropped kerbs, which is why I thought that the occupier's agreement to the full parking restriction was necessary.

There seems to be no plan to roll it out to all existing drops as road markings get renewed. Is that simply not to antagonise too many people at once?

In the quiet backwaters informal arrangements seem to work for existing unmarked or white lined drops but what if, close to a shop or school, a particular occupier frequently calls on the traffic wardens to deal with unwanted parkers. The occupier might wish to allow friends to park, but could the Council unilaterally solve the problem, case by case, with double yellow lines?

I accept your analysis that the Council is legally entitled to do this, but I think it does not justify it. "Because we can" would not be an acceptable reason. The Council has of course given a reason - safety.

[amydown]

Resurrecting an old thread as we are looking to apply for a dropped curve to have our front garden turned into a driveway and are struggling to get an idea of cost and timescale from the council. Has anybody recently done this in SE22 and if so, would you be able to share how long the process took and the cost payable to the council?

[James Barber]

Hi amydown,

If you email me your address Ill explain the rules for your home WRT dropped kerbs/crossovers/etc. It varies by road and even address under some circumstances.

[amydown]

Thank you James - will send you an email now!

[Asbury Park]

I have a car and can see why people may want dropped kerbs, but if you look at the big picture and how they work for your neighbours and the wider local society there are several problems with them:

1. Kerbs and their driveways concrete the local environment, reducing the local green spaces even further

2. They discourage the use of facilities such as Zip car services - one neighbour who is in the process of getting a dropped kerb told me that she had been planning to give up her car and use the zip car as she doesn't use the car very often, but given that she could get the council to put in a parking space for her she has changed her mind.

3. It is an ineffective use of resources - with no dropped kerbs it is a 'first come first served' approach to parking on the street. If a dropped kerb is in place nobody can use that slot - for example even if the owner is away on holiday for two weeks, it will remain empty whilst other locals are denied parking on their own street.

4. My kids are older now, but there are a lot of pre-school children who live on our street - they play, run along pavements and use their scooters along the pavement. With more cars driving across the pavements and pulling out from driveways unseen behind hedges the area becomes more dangerous and pavements are no longer somewhere that can be thought of as safe for children.

I think for the sake of what is usually only moments or minutes of extra walk to find a space we will have ended up destroying some of the very things that encouraged many of us to choose to make our homes here in the first place. The kerbs are rapidly turning what were very pretty green south London streets with front gardens that were enjoyed by everyone into somewhere that has all the visual appeal of a car park, and created more neighbourly tension to boot. We may decide at some point that perhaps that space for your car wasn't worth it?

[intexasatthe moment]

Asbury you make a number of good points .

Your neighbour must be flush ,it's not cheap to have a dropped kerb done .Though probably enhances value of property and avoid any future CPZ charges .

It's my understanding ( happy to be corrected ) that people can park across a dropped curbif they have the permission of the hoseholder .

"Driveways that serve a single property

If there's no enforceable yellow line, you can park close to this type of driveway without penalty. We only enforce if the occupier of the property makes a specific request.

If you're having problems with vehicles obstructing your driveway, you can request free dropped kerb enforcement by contacting [email protected]. You can also call 0207 708 8610 or 020 7708 8587.

Our hours of removal operations are 08.30 to 18.30 Monday to Saturday (subject to change). Outside these times, we may dispatch mobile patrol units to issue the PCN."http://www.southwark.gov.uk/parking/guide-to-parking/dropped-kerbs-and-driveways?chapter=3

and

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/18/section/86

It looks as though Southwarks plan to put yellow lines either side of any new dropped kerbs has been ....dropped .

Anyone know for sure ?

[uncleglen]

Since people do not move on from ED- stamp duty.....then the dropped kerb is obviously the next building enhancement project after lofts and basements and conservatories etc. Eventually everyone will have a dropped kerb and that means that those in (increasingly common around here) conversion flats will have nowhere to park even though they pay their fair share of road tax....how is that fair?

[mancity68]

All of the dropped kerbs in the recent Talfourd etc CPZ have had double yellow lines painted across them that extend way beyond the width of each drive. So not only is that parking space lost to the whole street, at least 1/2 another space per dropped kerb is lost too. And even if the house holder gives permission, if you park across the drive you'll get a ticket.

[edhistory]

It due course Southwark Council will apply to the Valuation Office to have properties with paved over gardens re-valued for council tax.

Southwark Council will also start charging annual rent for dropped kerbs.

[jimlad48]

mancity68 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> All of the dropped kerbs in the recent Talfourd

> etc CPZ have had double yellow lines painted

> across them that extend way beyond the width of

> each drive. So not only is that parking space lost

> to the whole street, at least 1/2 another space

> per dropped kerb is lost too. And even if the

> house holder gives permission, if you park across

> the drive you'll get a ticket.

But given cpz implementation sees traffic usually reduced by 60%, its not like there will be a lack of spsces to round!

[JohnL]

Drxyster Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> To edhistory,

>

> Front garden not destroyed, car area was occupied

> by dead grass and wheelie bins. Grass would not

> grow due too large Laburnam tree. Laburnam is now

> flourishing and looks beautiful when in flower and

> very attractive when not in flower.

If a dropped kerb is allowed by the council then it's a bit unfair to stop someone getting one (petition the council not to allow more would be the democratic way).

by the way my mother warned me to keep away from Laburnam trees and I'd forgotten until now.

[Pugwash]

We have a dropped kerb - it was in place when we purchased the house in 1975. For the past few years we have double

yellow lines - painted overnight without notice by the council and without any approach to ourselves. This mean when our family visit (with 2 children under 4) they have to let us know in advance. We then move dustbins etc and reposition my car on the flower beds to enable them to get into our hard standing. Our other daughter has teenage children and seeks ot parking spaces - usually a 10 minute walk away.