Dropped kerb application

[Mustard]

I think Southwark are double yellow lines happy now. They are everywhere that they can possibly put them, and they seem to extend well back from corners now, more than seems necessary. It still doesn't stop people from parking on them though, and especially near schools.

[justaskin]

Following intexasatthe moment?s link to Southwark?s websitel, you get another link through to Section 86 of the Traffic Management Act 2004, which says no parking by a dropped kerb except:

outside residential premises with the consent of the occupier.

Putting double yellows across a residential dropped kerb cancels that exception. Is that lawful?

Just askin.

[intexasatthe moment]

I wouldn't have thought so justaskin .

It seems to me that the info online is very confusing and leaves loads of leeway for misunderstanding and fines to be issued . Maybe I'm dense or paranoid ,it almost seems to me that whoever wrote the pages wants them to be unclear .

http://www.southwark.gov.uk/info/473/guide_to_parking/3069/dropped_kerbs_and_driveways/3 This page seems to suggest that a vehicle with a wheel adjacent to a dropped kerb can be ticketed .

"Dropped kerbs with access to off-street areas

Vehicles parked adjacent to a dropped kerb may be ticketed and possibly removed without notice. Only vehicles that are either straddling the dropped kerb or have a wheel adjacent to the dropped kerb can be enforced."

I presume ,because the following clause specifies access to single properties , this relates only to access to driveways that serve more than one property or a carpark ot similar ? But it doesn't say so .

For ..Driveways that serve a single property "Providing there is no enforceable yellow line, you and your visitors may park close to this type of driveway without penalty. For this reason, we only enforce upon specific request of the property occupier."

If there were some clarity about the " wheel adjacent " such as a specification along the lines of " in such a way as to obstruct access " I'd be happier . As it is it seems to leave it open to the whim of the person who asked for the dropped kerb and the zeal of the parking attendant . And why say " you and your visitors " ? Why not just " vehicles " ? Owned by anyone ,like your neighbours and their visitors ?

But in any case ,this page http://www.southwark.gov.uk/info/473/guide_to_parking/3069/dropped_kerbs_and_driveways/4

seems to leave the way clear for yellow lines to be installed adjacent to a crossover just because it's new .

And reiterates that it's an offence in most cases ( no explanation of what those most cases are ) to park ADJACENT to a dropped kerb and makes no distinction between a dropped kerb for a single dwelling or one serving a car park .

This page http://www.southwark.gov.uk/info/473/guide_to_parking/3069/dropped_kerbs_and_driveways/5 says that the circumstances of when it's illegal to park adjacent to a dropped kerb have been explained - but I can't see where ,unless it's the distinction between access to single properties ( where you can be ticketed if the resident wants you to be )and other access .

Can someone cleverer than me come along and show that I'm being dense and paranoid ?

[BikeChick]

I think the reason I did not understand the problem is that Southwark's approach is ENTIRELY different to Lambeth's! Sorry.

[Renata Hamvas]

Hi everyone, double yellow lines are not installed where a dropped kerb is installed for someone to park on their front driveway. They are installed in other instances eg where dropped kerbs are put in, possibly with an island in the middle of the road to provide an informal road crossing point. This is done to improve safety.

Renata

[intexasatthe moment]

Thanks Renata ,that's good to hear

. Shame it doesn't say that on Southwark's website . And shame that another poster LS1234 was misled about it

" LS1234 August 27, 06:13PM

I have been told very clearly by Southwark that all new residential dropped curbs will have yellow lines to 2m either side of the dropped curb unless there is an exceptional reason. It is a new rule that has come into force this year to give cars on the road clearer visibility of cars coming off driveways, it does not apply to current dropped curbs. I was also told that existing dropped curbs that are being redone will most likely not be white lined again in the future."

Clearer wording needed I think .

[LS1234]

We were in the process of applying for a dropped Kerb and it is very clear in the official letter from Southwark that all new dropped kerbs even if there is no safety issue, as with our house, will have a double yellow line placed along it and for 2 meters either side. I have spoken at length to Chris Johnson and the man who bought these new rules in (Dave Farnham) at Southwark and this is now their policy. I have forwarded all of this information on to James Barber as well. It is a ridiculous rule but I'm not getting anywhere with trying to get it changed...

[intexasatthe moment]

I think JB hasbeen/is still unwell but maybe Renata could help ?

[LS1234]

Renata if you speak to Chris Johnson or Dave Farnham you will be told that "improving safety" now applies to all dropped Kerb applications in Southwark regardless of their proximity to traffic islands....I can forward you the official Southwark letter if that helps?

[spider69]

LS1234 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> We were in the process of applying for a dropped

> Kerb and it is very clear in the official letter

> from Southwark that all new dropped kerbs even if

> there is no safety issue, as with our house, will

> have a double yellow line placed along it and for

> 2 meters either side. I have spoken at length to

> Chris Johnson and the man who bought these new

> rules in (Dave Farnham) at Southwark and this is

> now their policy. I have forwarded all of this

> information on to James Barber as well. It is a

> ridiculous rule but I'm not getting anywhere with

> trying to get it changed...

Why has this not been put out for public consultation.

Southwark officers seem to believe they can do what ever they decide behind closed doors as gospel.

Perhaps it should be pointed out we pay their salaries through our Council Tax and should have a deciding vote.

[lesalden]

There seems to be confusion between two types of dropped kerb.

Type A is where the drop is near a junction for the convenience of pushchairs etc. They are about one metre wide.I can see why this should be enforced.

Type B is to allow access to a residential forecourt. This is installed at the request of a householder. It is usually two metres wide. It would be excessive to put double yellows here. They would all be overlapping each other down our street!!

Please could our councillors clarify this.

[LS1234]

The new rule applies to residential forecourts (I don't know what the rules are about the other). I can clarify it for you as I have applied and have an official letter from Southwark explaining that all new residential dropped kerbs will be double yellow lined over the dropped kerb area and to 2 metres either side as standard. We live in a house with off street parking but the previous owner didn't drop the kerb. I have also spoken to Southwark twice to have it confirmed. What we need from the Councillors is help to get a rule changed that is not practical for everyday living.

[Tanday]

Yep, double yellow lines is the word from Southwark council I'm afraid Renata

[Siduhe]

Renata Hamvas Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Hi everyone, double yellow lines are not installed

> where a dropped kerb is installed for someone to

> park on their front driveway. They are installed

> in other instances eg where dropped kerbs are put

> in, possibly with an island in the middle of the

> road to provide an informal road crossing point.

> This is done to improve safety.

> Renata

Renata, is there any chance you could get this confirmed by someone at Southwark who is willing to put their name to it? What you put above is what I understood the regs say, but my neighbour is putting a drop in and the Southwark road engineer who came to measure up last week was adamant that double yellows are mandatory for every drop kerb now in Southwark - which is the same as what others appear to be being told given the above.

[intexasatthe moment]

Sidhue - when you say regs ,which regs are you referring to ? The info on Southwark's website http://www.southwark.gov.uk/info/473/guide_to_parking/3069/dropped_kerbs_and_driveways is clear that yellow lines may be introduced where a new dropped kerb has been installed .

"Yellow lines

The council may introduce waiting restrictions (yellow lines) in front of dropped kerbs in the following circumstances:

Parking is controlled in the street for other reasons (eg. the street is within a parking zone, yellow lines are needed to allow sufficient space for vehicles to pass, or road safety).

Circumstances would make it confusing to omit them (eg. if new yellow lines were being installed at a junction and there was a dropped kerb immediately adjacent we would probably extend the lines across it).

Adjacent to new crossovers."

What particularly worries me is the reference to markings ADJACENT to the dropped kerb . Not straddling ,but adjacent .

And statements like this " in most circumstances it is an offence, irrespective of the presence or absence of road markings, to park adjacent to a dropped kerb."

Renata has raised an official members enquiry into the issue but has warned that officers are allowed to take up to 10 working days to respond .

[LS1234]

A councillor has done this already on our behalf and the response from Southwark was:

"SSDM design standard DS.002 confirms that new vehicle crossings that are located on non-Classified Roads (roads that are not A or B roads) must have Waiting Restrictions That Are Enforceable At Any Time extending across them and for 2 metres to either side along the carriageway. For Classified Roads the distance required to either side is considerably greater. These particular requirements apply only to new vehicle crossings (not existing). In many instances (but not all) they are likely to be met by extending continuous "double yellow line" road markings through a vehicle crossing and for the specified distance to either side."

This new rule is in place. We need to know how I get it changed...

[intexasatthe moment]

LS1234 is right . http://www.southwark.gov.uk/info/200456/southwark_streetscape_design_manual_ssdm

and this from DS.132 " 3.7 Parking restrictions around Vehicle Crossings

a. See standard DS.002 about providing No Waiting At Any Time restrictions through and in the

vicinity of Vehicle Crossings.

NOTE: Broadly, in most instances restrictions are needed through and to 2m either side of each

Crossing. However, for Vehicle Crossings on Classified Roads (A and B roads) restrictions are

normally needed to the entire extent of related visibility splays (for which see standard DS.114)"

But installing yellow lines requires a Traffic Management Order ,which can be appealed against . Maybe some hope there ?

[Penguin68]

This is clearly all about making parking on local streets increasingly impossible, by blanking out large areas of kerb every time a new dropped kerb is installed - how quickly before the clamour for (charged for) residents parking arises, as peope are squeezed out of parking options in 'their' streets - no wonder we have had such silence from at least one of our elected councillors, although fair do's to Renata for trying to bottom this out - but then she doesn't have history, does she?

[intexasatthe moment]

I think you could be right Penguin ,there has to be some logic behind this . It certainly isn't the desire to promote safety or the clearly stated right for visitors and relatives to park close to dropped kerbs wouldn't appear .

"Driveways that serve a single property

Providing there is no enforceable yellow line, you and your visitors may park close to this type of driveway without penalty. For this reason, we only enforce upon specific request of the property occupier."

And I agree about the echoing silence from some quarters .

[justaskin]

Safety considerations rightly pervade all traffic management thinking, and the solutions are rarely simple.

Here, I understand, safety is cited specifically as the reason for the new double yellows requirement, by ensuring permanent sight lines around the vehicle crossing point. If it is a compelling reason, then why does it apply only to new applications? Why is it not retrospective?

If these extra sight lines are required to reduce the risk of collisions between cars at crossing points, then surely the same logic would apply to the sight lines at all points at which a pedestrian might cross, which under the council?s current rules might be anywhere on a residential street. Double yellows on all residential streets? Restricting pedestrians? freedom to cross?

Just askin

[Renata Hamvas]

I have asked council officers to clarify the rules and will post on here once I have an update.

Renata

edited for type!

[justaskin]

Further thoughts on the safety issues. Clear sight lines are not always a net gain, as a belief by drivers that they have a clear view can encourage speed, plus a disregard for stop and give way signs. Are drivers not taught to proceed, particularly on a residential street, with the assumption that they do not have clear sight lines? Would the increased space around the dropped kerb also encourage the resident to emerge onto the road at greater speed and greater risk?

Just askin

[MarkT]

Intexasatthe moment

Following on from our posts on the East Dulwich Councillor thread, thanks for your quick response.

The Cabinet Member's Decision (instruction to officers) was to proceed to produce a Planning Document which, apparently, has not yet been done. Once that is done then I understand an application for a dropped kerb would be a ?planning application? to the planning department.

The SSDM was to be an interim arrangement.

A planning document typically includes statements of policy presented as guidelines with reasons, to guide the decision on each planning application - guidelines rather than rigid rules, because a judgement on a specific case may need to balance a wide range of factors.

A planning document is first published in draft form and after a statutory period of consultation, minimum 6 weeks, an amended final version can be adopted as policy. (See SCI ? Statement of Community Involvement).

A planning application has its own consultation of at least 3 weeks. I think that the Traffic Management officers would be automatically consulted over any relevant application. Grounds for a neighbour?s objection might include loss of ?Amenity? eg freedom to park in your own street, which would have to be balanced against the safety arguments put forward by traffic management officers ? case by case.

The historic consultation, I referred to in my suggestion to James Barber, seems to have been brief and only on the headings, eg the aspiration to improve road safety. It pre-dated the Member?s Decision to develop the SSDM, and an SPD, so could not be considered as a full consultation on either. (The Members Decision Report, on the Council website, says that the review of the consultation is attached as an appendix, but it isn?t). The statutory consultation for an SDP would require publication of the entire Draft document and publication of comments.

Mark

[Renata Hamvas]

I'm still trying to get to the bottom of this!

Renata

[intexasatthe moment]

Mark - thank you so much for this .

So there needs to be pressure to produce an SDP ( which would involve consultation ) and once in place dropped kerbs would be dealt with on an individual basis as planning applications ?

I thought I'd have a quick look at the Southwark Streetscape Design Manual to see if I could work out what weight the current info re yellow lines/dropped kerbs has .

But it looks pretty complicated - a task for later .

But very many thanks for your comments ,the situation ,and how it's arisen , makes more sense to me now .

Bit worrying though that this has come about ...