Dropped kerb application

[Applespider]

Dropped kerbs have always been a little bizarre in Southwark. Our neighbours (both sides of the road) have dropped kerbs (old ones) that come out at speed bumps. Our (4 flats) application for a dropped kerb (about a decade ago) was rejected by Southwark - despite taking 3 cars off the road because it was too close to the speed bumps. Our across the road neighbours (in Lewisham) were allowed one in exactly the same place.

The fact that you're not supposed to park on/near bumps anyhow - and in theory, having a driveway there would be less likely make people park near them (as they do currently). In the real world, poor parking (bumps/crossings/white or yellow lines/pavement) doesn't get policed in most residential streets unless you live near shops/stations.

[LS1234]

Yes, neighbours do get the opportunity to object to a new dropped kerb application.

[intexasatthe moment]

So if the neighbours object on grounds of loss of amenity would the application be rejected and no dropped kerb allowed ?

Though presumably Southwark could argue that the neighbours never enjoyed the ability to park outside their home as anyone could park there . So reject the loss of amenity claim ?

[MarkT]

Renata wrote (October 9 above) that Councillors, at Community Council, had over-ruled officers with regard to the double yellow line extension. One dropped kerb: "was approved but only with the stipulation from Councillors that it can't extend outside the dropped kerb to a neighbouring property which doesn't have a dropped kerb."

A question for Councillors therefore is if they can reject a part of the yellow line, why not all of it, and still approve the dropped kerb.

If that one case has gone ahead with the Councillors amendment, then it challenges the officers' assertions that the whole length including 2 metre extensions is a safety requirement.

Perhaps some potential applicants have dropped their applications because they did not want to impose a parking restriction on neighbours. If Councillors can vary the rule, then officers must advise applicants accordingly.

Mark

[intexasatthe moment]

Slightly off topic ,but I'm a bit confused as to whether Community Councils still consider planning applications .

James B. is clear that they don't . Perhaps they consider some categories ,like dropped kerbs ?

Off to look at C.C. agendas ......

[MarkT]

Texas,

dropped kerbs are not planning applications, they are "Traffic Management Orders".

On the Council's Website, search for "traffic orders" (double 'f') ignore the website's helpful query "Did you mean ..." where they always offer you a miss-spelling. Follow through to "Traffic Order Consultations". Find a list of PDFs including some titled "Local Parking Issues".

It is my contention that such road changes ought to be planning applications. (I am also arguing elsewhere that all minor local planning applications should be dealt with by Community Councils, as specified in the Council's published "Statement of Community Involvement"

The Decision to bring the Streetscape matters under an SPD, ie a planning document, was taken by the appropriate Cabinet Member 2 years ago.

The Draft New Southwark Plan is peppered with policies that relate to these issues eg: DM17 on Travel and Transport specifically includes car parking; 39.1 is about Streetscape; 43.1.1 and .4 on safe ease of movement, and safety in the public realm.

The point about this is that as an SPD, the streetscape "rules" would have to dovetail with other planning policies and would be subject to public challenge at the policy making stage.

Mark

[carolb]

I think dropped kerbs are an overall improvement to the parking situation for the residents of a road ?? without 2m of yellow lines I hasten to add.

One, or more cars off the road plus space in front of the dropped kerb for visitors, neighbours, tradesmen, neighbours? tradesmen, neighbours? visitors and deliveries.

Of course, it is a pain if you are not resident and are doing a spot of shopping and can?t find anywhere to park because of all the dropped kerbs!

[intexasatthe moment]

Carol - that's a very generous view of people's behaviour . My neighbours ( who I have no disagreement with ) view their dropped kerb as theirs . They don't allow the world and his wife to park there .

And there's an application for a dropped kerb that I'm aware of that involves removing a resident's parking permit place . So ,if you live in the street in question ,you carry on paying the same amount to park in the road but have less spaces available to you .And your neighbour ( quite legitimately ) has bought the parking space outside their house .

[Penguin68]

They don't allow the world and his wife to park there .

I have one, and neither do I, but I don't mind e.g. delivery vehicles stopping for a short time in order to make deliveries, strangers stopping to drop people off etc. etc. My dropped kerb therefore creates a 'universal' short-term stopping place - which assists my neighbours with heavy loads, people dropping off children etc. If I'm about (hardly matters if I'm not) I may go out to check how long people will be stopping - if I need to go out or am expecting someone back, but otherwise I'm reasonably accommodating - as most people around me seem to be. Of course, occasionally someone (often in a white van) may 'take the mick' - but over the last 25 years I have rarely had a problem.

On occasion I have been asked by neighbours if I would mind a longer use of 'my' dropped kerb space - i.e. more than a few minutes for, e.g. engineers etc. to visit - if I can I do. I am sure I am not unusually generous in so doing.

However, and in general, street parking is normally reasonably easy around me, so maybe fewer problems have had to present themselves.

[intexasatthe moment]

But Penguin ,the situation you describe " vehicles stopping for a short time in order to make deliveries, strangers stopping to drop people off etc. etc... a 'universal' short-term stopping place - which assists my neighbours with heavy loads, people dropping off children etc." would exist without you having a dropped kerb ?

And ,more importantly , how do you format your post to italicse words ?

[intexasatthe moment]

Mark - thanks for your post . Which as usual clarifies things for me .

The TMO aren't very visible to people at the moment . By coincidence I had spotted a planning notice in Highshore Rd . But it was very high on the lamp post ( certainly too high for me to comfortably read as I'm short and wear varifocals ,so much tilting of head involved ) and included a whole list of orders .

From looking at the TMO on Southwarks website I wasn't able to spot any specified length of yellow lines for dropped kerb applications . I suppose more info might be available if one scans the barcode ( forget it's name ) as invited . But I don't have a phone that's capable of that .

So yes I totally agree that it would be helpful to treat dropped kerbs as planning applications .And that then the policy around them would be open to public consultation as would the granting of individual applications .

And yes - street policies to dovetail with other planning policies . Seems obvious .

[Penguin68]

which assists my neighbours with heavy loads, people dropping off children etc." would exist without you having a dropped kerb ?

Not if it was in a parked-up street where people were parking through the day - the dropped kerb creates a (short) no-go area for permanent parking, thus allowing this type of visitor.

Edited to add - put (no spaces) at the start of the section to be italicised, and at the end - you can do the same with b to get something in bold, to answer your second point. It's HTML.

[intexasatthe moment]

I guess we'll need a secret masonic type indicator to show which dropped kerbs are available for others to use .But it would have to work on parking wardens so that they didn't inadvertently issue tickets .

thank you for the advice .

Though I notice that using that method on my laptop now means that everything following also appears in italics . But I think this is particular to me as it's a problem I have if I copy and paste anything into an email . Following text then adopts the style of the copied stuff . But that's all off topic !

[Penguin68]

Are you sure you are putting in the closing (no spaces) ? You need that to close-off the HTML command. I know that in one e-mail programme I use any formatting 'sticks' until it is changed - but that's not using overt HTML coding.

[intexasatthe moment]

I was not paying attention and as you rightly identified was omitting the / .

Sadly I don't know about HTML or overt HTML coding .

Maybe I could swop neighbours and solve my parking and formatting problems in one move .

[AbDabs]

intexasatthe moment Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I guess we'll need a secret masonic type indicator

> to show which dropped kerbs are available for

> others to use .But it would have to work on

> parking wardens so that they didn't inadvertently

> issue tickets .

>

No need to worry about that - parking wardens need to park up, get out their ticket book etc, all of which takes time. Throughout the day various people use my drop kerb space to deliver goods, drop off children, elderly relatives, make a phone call on their mobile etc. As long as they are doing just that, not parking up and leaving the vehicle, then I have no reason to mind and nor will a parking warden have a chance to write a ticket. The purpose of a drop kerb should simply be to stop anyone blocking vehicle access (so visitors can park as I can get them to move immediately) but it shouldn't be a permanently empty space. Putting double yellows across it is utter madness.

[intexasatthe moment]

Bloody hell . Everything - all posts ,titles etc - is in italics now . Or is it just me ? Have I infected the thread ?

[Jeremy]

You should never encourage tech-illiterate (no offence) people to start putting HTML tags in their posts!

[intexasatthe moment]

What have I done ? How do I undo it ? No ,don't tell me . I won't understand !

[Penguin68]

Thanks, Jeremy, for closing off the second set of 'open italics' commands - I hadn't seen this developing. Intexas - you 'opened' italics twice (once whilst trying to close them) - every command needs a counter command to stop it working - if you open twice you have to close twice. Efectively, although you see posts in a thread as being individual, each thread acts as a continuous run of HTML embedded codes - and you can influence anything 'below' you if you don't stop what you start.

Sorry, admin, all off-topic, but to a good cause (I hope).

[MarkT]

I've enjoyed that diversion. Boringly perhaps back to the topic, I can?t think of any other situation where an individual can get exclusive rights over a section of the public highway. By comparison a parking space outside the house of a disabled driver gives no exclusive right. The sign says it?s open to all badge holders.

With no double yellow lines, even antisocial occupiers can at least allow parking to their select few, thus reducing the parking load elsewhere. It is arguable that a dropped kerb can have a neutral effect on overall parking space.

The new parking restriction gives the beneficiary a guaranteed clear stretch of road to the detriment of everybody else. The Council has cancelled any possibility of good neighbourly negotiations over short term parking. The extension of 2 metres each way will in many cases remove 2 street parking spaces to provide for 1 off-street space.

This is justified by the Council as a safety measure to provide clear sight lines. I think that is a debatable point. It may encourage speedy entry and exit, to the possible endangerment of anyone on the footpath.

I think that traffic management should have a net communal benefit as a primary aim, which will include a general discouragement of car use and improved safety of all road and footpath users. Where is the communal benefit in this new rule?

[intexasatthe moment]

That's really well put Mark .

Wonder how we can get that message over to the correct dept at Southwark ?

[carolb]

If they put double yellow lines you would get a ticket for parking in front of the dropped kerb to your own house.

I occasionally park in front of mine when I know I?m going out again soon.

I also parked in front when we had a skip in the parking area.

Come to think of it - are you allowed to put a skip on a double yellow line? If not where would people put their skips - not all off-street parking areas are big enough/accessible enough to put a skip on.

[Penguin68]

This is all clearly madness - unless you accept that it is part of the war against cars by the anti-car brigade (which includes, as I recall, the Lib Dems and Greens - happy to stand corrected if I am wrong here). Taken in this light, such a stupid idea, which will cause upset and distress with 'cars' seen as the trigger, may all be part of a cunning plan (and a Tojan Horse, again, for CPZs - nice little earners as a punishment tax on car ownership).

If it is, basically, anti-car, then don't expect any quick or sensible resolutions - oh, and we don't seem to be getting any of those, do we?.

[BrandNewGuy]

I don't think it's explicitly anti-car. I think it's simply an exercise in reducing the amount of parking space so that residents cry out a CPZ across the area ? a nice little earner for the Council with no long-term benefit to the residents. In these times of 'savage cuts', many Council activities are primarily geared up to revenue-raising.