Rail fare rises (again)

[polla2256]

It has just been announced by the press that rail fare rises may increase by more than 9% this year. Apart from the obvious impact on our wallets due to the dependency we have on such services how have the government got this so wrong ? What can be done to modify the rail market in favour of passengers but still increase the service levels ? What will be the real social impact if such a policy carries on infinitum ?

[uncleglen]

Travel costs are totally unacceptable- especially since at rush 'hour' one invariably has to stand. And at weekends when you want to enjoy yourself and get out and about, half the trains are not running so you drive since it is your leisure time. The infrastructure cannot adequately support the population on any level and for any front line service and it is all a result of seriously short-sighted politics.

[david_carnell]

I suggested this solution some time ago:

http://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/forum/read.php?27,750789

Perhaps it's time to revisit that idea again?

[polla2256]

totally agree with cycling I for one use either a motorbike or bicycle for my commute. however the reason that I now live in east Dulwich is we worked out a saving of ?250 per month just because of reduced rail fares despite the increase in rent. it is this sort of social impact the government has missed. given the current housing crisis the rail issue will only compound matters. re-nationalisation may be an option but so are 15 or even 20 year franchises, however I would prefer nationalisation.

In some instances a bike isn't practical, especially for those who either cannot use a bike through impairment, see it as being too dangerous or travel an impractical distance. how much money do the public need to put into the pot outside of taxes. it can't continue.

[Jeremy]

Fares are getting silly. I can handle the ?120 a month for a zone 1-2 travelcard, but I'm sure many would struggle. If you earn 20K a year, that's around 10% of your take-home pay!

Where's the value-for-money in these huge price hikes? Although we've seen increased frequency and reliability(arguably) in our train services to ED, but we've lost the valuable Victoria "loop", and are still experiencing constant weekend closures.

[david_carnell]

At least with privatised utilities I have a choice of provider.

The rail network merely turns a state-owned monopoly over to a private one with poor fare controls esp if inflation is outstripping wages.

[Jeremy]

There is some competition on mainline services... but I'd argue that even that isn't in the public interest. Especially when people are being slapped with huge fines because their ticket is only valid for a certain operator.

[zeban]

In Japan the company you work for has to pay for your commute, it's illegal for them not to. Something that would NEVER happen in the UK but bloody brilliant and hugely beneficial. Another price hike is completely unacceptable

[StraferJack]

Multiple operators on the same route really bugs me on a practical level (nothing to do with politics or ideals)

If I want to travel to Bournemouth I really don't want to choose who I travel with nor do I want to be thanks for choosing them

I want to go at a time of my choosing, and a reasonable price. That's all I want to do

If my ticket says 13:06 and a train to same destination is leaving at 13:05, and there is room - I expect that service to be the same and transferable - it's a train taking me to a destination and that's all it is.

It's offering choice with no advantages, and lot's of penalties

[Jeremy]

Exactly.

Multiple operators on a route - confusion and fines

Single operator on a route - no choice of provider

Either way, privatisation doesn't seem to have brought any benefits to the customer.

[david_carnell]

zeban Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> In Japan the company you work for has to pay for

> your commute, it's illegal for them not to.

> Something that would NEVER happen in the UK but

> bloody brilliant and hugely beneficial. Another

> price hike is completely unacceptable

Is that true? How wonderful.

I think you should at least be able to make travelling to work tax deductable as a reasonable expense. Getting ?1k back off a ?3k season ticket would be a start.

[zeban]

yep true, I am writing from Japan!

[Marmora Man]

zeban Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> In Japan the company you work for has to pay for

> your commute, it's illegal for them not to.

> Something that would NEVER happen in the UK but

> bloody brilliant and hugely beneficial. Another

> price hike is completely unacceptable

Someone, somewhere must be bearing the cost of the employer paying for the commute.

Probably either the employee in reduced actual salary or the purchaser of the employer's services / products in increased price(s). It may appear to be a free good - but it can't be.

[StraferJack]

It could be the employer. I know I know...

[zeban]

I have no idea Marmora Man, but I think it is the employer because employment laws are very different here compared to Britain and in fact a founding principle of Japanese employment law is the principle of equality between worker and employer, thus there is an obligation towards employees here that are expected to be taken seriously, and in return the employee is expected to show dedication in return (not OTT dedication but some overtime and work dos are things you generally can't get out of).

[zeban]

Also minimum wage is minimum wage, you can't lower that, but those on minimum wage still get their commute paid for. And minimum wage is based upon the local cost of living so it differs from region to region. Tokyo is the equivalent of London for cost of living and minimum wage there is around ?8 per hour.

Services and goods are expensive here though, so it might have some knock on effect in that respect but who knows as Japan has always been an expensive country in terms of goods and services.

[????]

david_carnell Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> zeban Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > In Japan the company you work for has to pay

> for

> > your commute, it's illegal for them not to.

> > Something that would NEVER happen in the UK but

> > bloody brilliant and hugely beneficial. Another

> > price hike is completely unacceptable

>

> Is that true? How wonderful.

>

> I think you should at least be able to make

> travelling to work tax deductable as a reasonable

> expense. Getting ?1k back off a ?3k season ticket

> would be a start.

I thought you were a socialist? The middle-class suburban commuters and stockbrokers from the home counties will be doffing their top hats and bowlers in your direction......may be even throwing them in the air with shouts of huzzah

[zeban]

Let me be clear, there is a limit in Japan as to how much you can claim for your commute, they won't accept you commuting in from other cities, unless they really really want you, otherwise you will be asked to move so sorry if I made that a bit unclear.

[david_carnell]

???? Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> david_carnell Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > zeban Wrote:

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> > -----

> > > In Japan the company you work for has to pay

> > for

> > > your commute, it's illegal for them not to.

> > > Something that would NEVER happen in the UK

> but

> > > bloody brilliant and hugely beneficial.

> Another

> > > price hike is completely unacceptable

> >

> > Is that true? How wonderful.

> >

> > I think you should at least be able to make

> > travelling to work tax deductable as a

> reasonable

> > expense. Getting ?1k back off a ?3k season

> ticket

> > would be a start.

>

>

> I thought you were a socialist? The middle-class

> suburban commuters and stockbrokers from the home

> counties will be doffing their top hats and

> bowlers in your direction......may be even

> throwing them in the air with shouts of huzzah

Socialist? That's a bit tame for you. Trot or Commie Pinko if you please. Tax deductable travel would equally apply to your daily 6am bus ride to your cleaning job as it would your 1st class rail fare from deepest Surrey. I'm ok with universality in this instance.

[????]

Universality? the Coalition govt has (rightly) taken many of the very lowest paid workers out of tax altogether by raising thresholds significantly. Your idaes is both and nuts and regressive - the rich workers would get 40% back on their larger commute bills just as a standard part of their tax return. I can just imagine all the say sub 22K earners really overjoyed to have fill in tax returns let alone the bureaucracy....mad, mad, mad. Tax relief for the middle class....brilliant.

[david_carnell]

You can buy a bike to get to work tax free - why not a bus pass? It's really not that hard or complicated.

But of course you have something better, yes?

Ah.

[polla2256]

So you agree its better to impose restrictions on people than solve problems in a logical and fair manner ?

[LondonMix]

The cyclescheme is designed to incentivise people towards new behaviour that the government deem beneficial for society-- getting people to exercise reduces NHS costs as it improves health, cycling to work reduces road congestion etc.

Giving people a refund for using public transport when most people already use it doesn't make any sense as public policy. I agree with quids that providing this as a universal benefit is regressive taxation and deeply unfair. If offered at all, it certainly should be means-tested.

However, people seem to somehow think that tax refunds are free money. What's the point in reducing goverment revenue in this way, when we already know that we have a budget deficit that prevents us from paying our current level of expenditure without borrowing debt? We'd just end up having to raise taxes elsewhere or cutting services.

[????]

money tree?

[LondonMix]

Of course, I always forget about the money tree...