Grammar schools, tutoring etc

[Too Good To Be True]

I think the pupil premium is a good idea too.

Schools should get paid more for taking on poorer children. As long as this is used to attract top teachers and not on celebrity architects/unnecessarily flashy computers (as happened at the beginning of the New Labour era).

[tomskip]

It was widely reported last year that the Kent grammars are going to work towards tutor proofing their tests. Quite right too. The grammar "system" in this country at the moment is absurd.

[oimissus]

I thought that some (at least) tutoring was not because the child simply wasn't bright enough to get in to a grammar, but was to help prepare for the exam itself, and also to fill in any gaps that the primary school may not have provided but which the grammar would expect a child to know - so not about the child's ability, just their preparedness, if you like. It's a pity it's like that; equally it's a pity if a bright child misses out because the primary curriculum is lacking, or lack of basic exam practice.

[LondonMix]

Agree. A tutor proof test would be fairer. If that's not possible, then any pupil, regardless of their parents ability to pay, should be able to receive some test preparation support etc if their teachers think they have a shot. Anything else isn't meritocratic which defeats the whole idea behind grammars. With that said, I don't blame parents for doing what they feel they need to given the existing imperfections in the system.

[duchessofdulwich]

Not everyone tutors their children for the 11 plus exams in kent.

[duchessofdulwich]

Spoken to alot of people who took the exams without extra help and got accepted

[JessM]

If your kids are at a good primary school, with a good teacher, they won't have gaps in their knowledge and will have been challenged to achieve their potential.

So the perceived problem is not only one of the secondary schools being of varying quality, but also the primaries.

[westof]

JessM Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> If your kids are at a good primary school, with a

> good teacher, they won't have gaps in their

> knowledge and will have been challenged to achieve

> their potential.

>

> So the perceived problem is not only one of the

> secondary schools being of varying quality, but

> also the primaries.

When children start secondary school, if they are setted / streamed in a comprehensive school, then their position (which reflects their current level of achievement) is pretty much determined by the quality of primary school education they've had up to that point.

A couple of years later in a decent school with good teaching, things have often shaken up quite a bit - some of this may be down to individual children blossoming later, but I think it's mainly due to the gaps being filled in.

What really shocked me with some Year 7 streaming, is that because the quality of primary education that a child receives is so linked to the parents' ability to get them into the better schools, and because London has such varied social extremes - that you could have pretty much set the children according to their parents class & race & they would have ended up in the same sets. (Middle class white children dominating the upper sets, in case anyone needs it spelling out).

Though as I said in the paragraph above, at least in a good school, children in the lower sets will be able to move up as they benefit from good teaching (or as they move up the school, then sets get re-shuffled with more of them designated as higher ability). With hopefully the setting in the upper years being a more genuine reflection of children's innate ability.

[duchessofdulwich]

Also know of cases where the student had been in an ofsted rated inadequate school. Susbstitute teachers etc. Very unsettled primary school experience and got accepted for grammer. There really is no telling sometimes...

[BB100]

I think every grammar school should be made to take 10 or so children from its nearest deprived area primary schools. A few years ago I worked at a primary school on a notorious council estate that lived in the shadow of a grammar. No one from the primary ever got a place but there were a number of promising children on free school meals who would have thrived there but instead they all went off to the local sink secondary...

[pinxin]

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[MrsDanvers]

That's a massive oversimplification, westof. The educational attainment of the parents is the single biggest factor that determines how well a child will do at school. Intelligent, well-educated parents are likely to be able to get their children into better schools, yes, but they will also read and talk to the children, listen to what they have to say, work hard on their social skills, support them with their schoolwork (research on the internet, educational visits in the holidays etc) and (massively important) they will have very high expectations of what their children can and should achieve at school and later on. If these children went to less successful schools they might be miserable if there was unchecked bullying or very high turnover of staff/pupils, but from an educational point of view they would probably not suffer too much as they have such a huge head start from home.

[Carbonara]

"you could have pretty much set the children according to their parents class & race & they would have ended up in the same sets. (Middle class white children dominating the upper sets, in case anyone needs it spelling out). "

This is absolutely not the case in my childrens' South London comp.

There may well be the statistical representation of economic disadvantage correlating with an lower average attainment, but that is not the same as the top sets not being diverse. The top sets are very diverse, across both race and socio-economic groupings, and there are plenty of white middle class children in the middle and lower sets as far as I can tell from knowing many families, involvement in the school etc.

Whether it is the same in the Grammars / super-selectives, which seem to use expensive tutoring to achieve ever-spiralling scores in a competitive race for the place, I don't know as I have no involvement with those schools.

[Too Good To Be True]

MrsDanvers has it.

IIRC there are several studies confirming this.

On a more anecdotal basis: I went to a rough inner city comp up north and had supportive middle class parents. There were three other kids in my year in the same position. We were always bored, messed around, but did very well and ended up at top universities.

The kids at the top local boarding school on assisted places did not perform so well.

Parents' income is by far the best predictor of a child's ultimate income.

That is not to say that good schools do not play their part. The part they do play is overblown.

[BB100]

Carbonara Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

, , and there are plenty of white middle

> class children in the middle and lower sets as far

> as I can tell from knowing many families,

> involvement in the school etc.

>

> Whether it is the same in the Grammars /

> super-selectives, which seem to use expensive

> tutoring to achieve ever-spiralling scores in a

> competitive race for the place, I don't know as I

> have no involvement with those schools.

The grammars are full of Asian children. So much so, my son can do a range of regional Indian accents.

[duchessofdulwich]

Not everyone uses super expensive tutors some kids just sit the test and pass

[????]

So many people miss the point......It's not the clever kids that this is about, they generally do well. It's all the 'average' kids in shite schools who haven't a hope academically whereas their average peers elsewhere get by fine more or less

[Carbonara]

I think that is spot-on, ????

And avergae kids get the cracks papered over by middle class parents and / or a less selective private school, while less lucky average kids flounder.

[tomskip]

I am definitely missing the point - if grammar schools are not about bright kids then what are they about? And, duchessofdulwich, yes, some children do get a grammar place without tutoring but they are a tiny minority. Most children in grammar schools today have been tutored or been to private prep.

[westof]

Mrs Danvers you are right about the children with well-educated parents, but I'm thinking more of bright children who DON'T have well-educated parents who(possibly even know how to) support them in the ways you describe - if they are let down by school as well, then they are more likely to end up in the lower sets in Y7.

(Which is fine if they are then able to progress upwards, but that doesn't always happen, and with some children it can leave resentment that they were initially in the bottom sets, even if that was (attainment wise) the right place for them at the time).

(????s has got there before me)

[uncleglen]

There are students in Sixth Form colleges who can barely read or comprehend what they are reading and they are studying BTECs in various subjects. The fact that the coalition are going to spend ?600 million on free lunch for up to 7 year olds is ludicrous

[Anna27]

I think you have to take the commute into account over an hour to get to school is too long, I used to travel from ED to Orpinton for college. Looking back I should have chosen a local college, most days I felt unmotivated to go, plus getting up so much earlier, not a great start to the school day. Something to consider...

[MrsDanvers]

With the greatest possible respect, Anna, it's not that far for a 16 year old to commute. Millions of people have a much tougher journey to and from work and they don't find it that hard to get up in the morning if the alternative is having no job, or a worse job nearer home. Not so great for an 11 year old, I agree.

[Growlybear]

My daughter did the journey to school in Orpington for 7 years and it really wasn't a problem at all. She spent the first 2 years on the school bus which was organised by the PTA, and which ran from Crystal Palace to the school gates. After that, she travelled by train. The children who use the train and bus build up another set of friends as well as their classmates, and my daughter always viewed the journey as a very social start and end to the day.

[sangdong]

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