Pepper spray / other security against dangerous dogs?

[mysticmark]

Hi, I know pepper spray is illegal to use, still for sale on amazon, but what, if any, emergency defence do other parents have to protect your children from a random attack from a badly (or maliciously) trained dog?

Was searching online, but when I arrived at ARM BRITAIN NOW I decided to quit.

Mark

[Pickle]

Is it really that much of a problem? I've been using the parks daily for 6.5 years and never felt that my kids are in danger.

[Huggers]

inserting your finger up dog's bottom should deter it, and also it's a litmus test of sensible behaviour: something you would only do if you really knew you weren't just being paranoid. or carry a brolly.

[Anna27]

I have to admit it is in the back of my mind, I'm not sure what I would do probably panic! I don't feel in danger but it does make me a bit nervous when dogs are off their lead weaving about the kids. I've told them not to approach dogs as I would rather they be wary of all even if the dogs are friendly.

[buggie]

Rather than arming yourself with illegal weapons, how about first teaching your children not to provoke dogs/never to touch a dog without permission from the owner. Also to train yourself to be calm when near dogs (you come across as someone who sees dogs as a threat rather than something that normally brings love & fun) as if you're flapping, your children will flap & this could escalate a situation.

Being an ex-paeds A&E nurse I can concur with the other posters that random attacks are hugely rare (think I saw less than 3 in over 10yrs). Most dog bites (& in the grand scheme of accidents attending, dog bites make up a v small percentage) are by dogs that were known to the "victim" & would suggest there's a significant number where it is a game gone wrong - game often meaning teasing the dog.

[Ann]

Good point Buggie. Why do dogs get such bad press around here? Granted there are a lot of strong 'Staffie ' type dogs locally but as a dog owner and parent I can say neither have been threatened from any local dog.

I'm horrified that anyone would want to inflict pepper spray on a dog. Have we not, as a nation incorporated dogs as part of our lives for centuries at least?

Tragic stories of children being mauled or murdered are thankfully extremely rare, as are child murders by humans, but far less so. They've happened before and sadly will happen again.

Do dog owners have any legal recourse if such attack was inflicted on their dog?

[tiddles]

I think this sounds extremely odd. I can only assume something dreadful happened in the past to cause this anxiety?

IF this should ever happen, there is a) a good chance you would be not be carrying your weapon of choice at the necessary time and b) you end up harming small children or innocent bystanders whilst using said weapon.

(just realised maybe you live next door to someone with a horrendous animal - which could be worrying - but otherwise I don't think there are many threatening dogs round here - I am a dog owner so might be considered biased!!)

[mysticmark]

I absolutely love dogs and my children are smart around them, but as people will be aware there is an underground dog-fighting thing as well as just crap.owners who by using violence teach their dogs violence.

It is thankfully true that only very occasionally have I come across scary dogs that have made me keep my kids very close and look for exits / barriers, and its also true that there aren't dog attacks reported every day.

But - often enough to be in the back of my mind especially when Im with my most precious children in a zone where there's a possibility an incident may occur with some fool with a dog brought up on violence.

So far below the safety level of toddlers wearing helmets on scooters, say, to make me seem Im paranoid and have it in for dogs? I dont see why. Just wondered if anyone had gone as far as carrying some kind of emergency thing that works, obviously without harming the animal either - Im pretty sure even the illegal pepper spray I first mentioned doesnt blind or kill!

[Monkey]

pepper spray would be a bad idea as, as well as being illegal, it could affect you and you would not be able to protect your child. Best thing, I think, would be to familiarise yourself with how to deal with an aggressive dog. There's plenty on the subject on the Internet.

I have never been the slightest bit worried about any dogs in Dulwich park or Peckham rye,though I know there are some scary ones around.

[Ann]

Is there an underground dog-fighting thing?

As far as I'm aware there were laws passed about this many years ago and certain breeds are illegal.

Of course your children are precious , all children are, but I'm unaware of any child being seriously harmed by a random dog attack. The majority of the awful cases reported are where the dog is owned by a family( albeit extended ) member?

No offence but I do think some well meaning parents can instill unnecessary fear into their children.

[skylorikeet]

I've been told that throwing a coat or something similar over fighting dogs will stop them as they can't see, so feel vulnerable. Pepper spray could make the situation worse. I think Buggie and other posters are right, this is an unlikely scenario. I walk my dogs locally, have owned dogs for many years and have never come across a dogfight endangering children.

[first mate]

skylorrikeet,

well said, if you want you or your child to get bitten then using pepper spray is a great way to go about it.

As Anna said earlier, rather like child abuse, canine on human attacks are usually carried out within the home and are invariably the reult of poor boundaries and ownership- very occasionally you get a rogue dog with a screw loose. Dogs that are very badly treated may become fear aggressive to humans or children. Children, if not taught how to behave around dogs can end up getting a warning nip. However, random attacks by strange dogs on children when out in parks etc.. is very rare.

I too worry about the levels of panic I see in some children when they are around dogs and wonder why this is? There have always been kids that are phobic about dogs, often because they have been pushed over as kids by an overly excitable, poorly trained, dog, or even been given a nip, however I often come across kids on the street (where my dog is on a lead) who shrink away in fear as I approach with my dog, or even start to cry and scream. The parents also seem anxious. Given that my dog is small and I am not a gorgon I find this puzzling.

[mysticmark]

Thing is, 'unlikely' isn't really enough of a reassurance when dealing with a risk of precious child / toddler being scarred or worse by untrained / badly trained dog.

On dog fights in London, one of many articles: http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/mps-warn-of-londons-illegal-dog-fighting-epidemic-8496685.html

On horrific dog attacks just try googling "dog attack" .uk 2013 ; I just did. Of the 80,000 results from 2013 of course there are many repeats of the same stories, probably around half or possibly even more ?, but clearly those that say 'there is nothing to worry about' are not basing their opinions on fact on this subject, or perhaps mean that they can defend 'themselves'.

My intention was purely pragmatic in seeking a practical emergency recourse and thanks for those practical answers (though not fully satisfied in their worth, thanks a lot anyway); honestly wasn't to interfere with people's ignorant bliss or to stir up chatter by drawing judgements, but that's all part of the fun of the internet.

We're looking for a dog ourselves, a sprollie hopefully.

[first mate]

mysticmark,

I shall certainly look up those figures with interest.

On a practical note, if a dog is seriously going to attack you, rather than you imagining it might be about to attack (I am sure you appreciate the distinction) then any pre-emptive attack on your part, with something like pepper spray, may increase the chance of the dog going all out to get you/your child. I say this because a dog that simply decides to attack a child out of the blue is likely to be mentally disturbed/ill and quite possibly will not back off when you go to attack it. Some status dogs are undoubtdely deranged because they have been so badly abused- attacking becomes a way of life and, seriously, attacking back, unless it is with a stun gun or high calibre weapon is not going to help much.

If you are unsure about a dog that appraoches you and don't want it around one method is to throw some kind of food away from you so as to divert the dog's attention. This is obviously not an ideal solution but is one I recommend to dog owners who want to get another dog to back off from theirs. If a dog is actually attacking you the best thing is to keep still, don't run and if possible, feed the dog an item of clothing like a jacket or bag, so that it latches onto that instead of you/your child. However, I totally appreciate that in the event of a serious attack any ability to think straight flies out of the window.

All I can say is that in many years of dealing with dogs, inlcuding rescue dogs with serious behavioural/aggression issues, I have never seen or heard of a dog behave this way with anything other than another dog out in a public space. Humans have been bitten but not randomly, out of the blue, there have always been warnings that were not heeded. More high risk points are in the home and in areas like the garden if, for instance a child has got into the garden or, indeed, dogs escaping from a front garden or through the front door to someone passing.

Actually, I've just had a cursory google around and I think it is imporant to be clear about definitions. In law the charge of an 'attack' can be made against a dog that is jumping up. The dog is innocent in motivation, though inappropriate in behaviour- this is why I teach dogs not to jump up, because this normal behaviour can get them into a lot of trouble and of course, a jumping-up dog can still cause injury, though it is not motivated by aggression.

So, reports on 'attacks' may be misleading. Bites should be separated from nips. A dog that nips must be taught not to do this, but a nip is very different from a bite that punctures. If a dog really wants to hurt, rather than warn, the results will be severe to any adult human and may cost a child their life. Unfortunately nips to small children can also draw blood and may require a&e attention. The dog that nips as a warning, though I in no way condone or undermine the fact that this needs addressing quickly, is very unlikley to launch a random attack on a child or person in a public place. Of course, there are always exceptions to the rule. To reiterate a dog that launches a severe attack in a public place upon a human or child is ill, deranged or treating the child as prey- again very unusual.

I am happy to be proved wrong here but I would suggest that if you examine any of the sever attacks on children appearin in the press all will have happened in the home or on the dog's territory (gardens etc..).

I do take on board your concerns and I agree that with the escalation in public fear, whether real or perceived (I would wnat to research this further) there do need to be good strategies that people can take away, if nothing else to reassure themselves with.

Glad to hear you may be getting a dog- in my view and experience it is other dogs that are at great risk from 'status' type dogs. Why a sprollie- is this a cross you are familiar with?

[ElmGrove]

Sprollie - a cross of two 2 high energy dogs.

[Miacis]

Just to second firstmate advice. Teach children to stand like a tree. Some good advice about this he and dog training generally http://www.clickertraining.com/node/3535

Stand like a tree is a fairly big campaign in US and over here. Good advice plus teach children never to tease a dog.

[intexasatthe moment]

Helpful posts here ,especially firstmate and Miacis .

Can see sense of stand like a tree . Interesting .