Woman stabbed in Peckham last night (Lounged)

[clive3300]

citizenED Wrote:

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> Totally agree with you, I hate that side-effect of

> the changes in society but the attempt to crack

> down on the whole population of young people with

> measures such as conscription is a regressive and

> counterproductive move.

Its odd that society seems unable to bring itself to crack down with strong and sensible penalties on the very obvious offenders who ARE identiable and culpable. Because most cannot imagine any effective punishment for younger people, society flails around trying to blame history, parents (though in a lot of cases, but not all they share responsibility), racism, etc and looks for ludicrous responses like general conscription.

General conscription is an overkill, however it isnt completely mad. I saw some real "tearaway" (ie violent nasty pieces of work) kids go through conscription and come out sweet as pie 12 months later. I would say it should be considered as a sentencing option. Boys are naturally aggressive and some need to get it out their system.

[alethea]

Stabbings are happening all over london, just the other week a 7 month pregnant woman was stabbed to death by an enraged ex in Islington, but you don't always hear about them as at the moment it's about teenage stabbings.

However people talk about people pulling together, but just the other week I was reading on the forum about a macdonalds on lordship lane being a bad idea, leave it to peckham do not want to encourage hooded youths etc. I'm not suggesting that a macdonalds is a good idea but a 'not in my area' attitude isn't always the most helpful it just re-enforces divides.

I think it's fair to say that one of the main reasons for what's happening in society is social depravity and poverty, the haves and the have nots, how that's tackled is the difficulty. Drugs in south London are not necessarily tackled in the right way and kids aspirations are misguided.

But had this been on the other side of Bellenden road would people be so shocked by it?

[citizenED]

Clive, I agree with you again about targetted conscription or some such like for aggressive male tearaways.

[TillieTrotter]

I agree too Clive.

[Guest]

I agree. On Radio 4 this morning this was being discussed and as usual lack of male parenting was front and centre. Well, a couple of years in the army would certainly give them plenty of that.

[SeanMacGabhann]

Hmmm. Lets sign em up and send them somewhere to get killed. Genius.

Or. Sign em up and equip them with some very scary skills for when they get out.

Im sure a spell in the army will help some people but its not a cure all. And if the best we as a society can do for these guys is a spell in the army i think it says more about us than it does about them

[TillieTrotter]

Sean, I certainly wasnt talking about sending them straight off to a war zone. I have two teenage boys and believe me that's the last thing I would want. But a bit of an army style boot camp would be better than slinging them into a young offenders prison or suchlike where they definately pick up dubious life skills.

[ChavWivaLawDegree]

But armies don't train for nothing - they do war.

[TillieTrotter]

I know that Chav, and I'm not suggesting they go into the ARMY. I would be heart broken if either of my boys wanted to sign up for the services but I do think that some sort of "disciplined rehab" (couldnt think of a better phrase) would be better than them festering in prison.

[SeanMacGabhann]

"Boot Camp" maybe? I dunno.. I should stay off the serious topics this morning methinks..

[Bellenden Belle]

National service, boot camp, disciplned rehab - call it what you like, I'm not convinced it is the solution. There has to surely be something that addresses these people as individuals - therapeutic intervention if you like - something that questions why their actions show some a disregard for life. And ultimately as a society we have to take responsibility for creating what is effectively an underclass - a section of society that puts so little value on human life.

If we actually give them a space to examine their behaviours, if we give them a chance to answer for themselves the question "why", we might make them believe this is a society where they can make a contribution and where they will be valued and listened to. Self esteem and self repect - surely it's worth breaking the vicious cycle of feeling disenfranchised, worthless, and therefore what does it matter what you do?

You can fight fire with fire, but a more challenging approach would be to re-educate people on what it means to be human - and that can only take place by treating them as such.

But this approach is expensive and not a vote-winner - we are much more comfortable with the idea of drilling the notion of respect into people - stripping people down, rather than building people up.

[citizenED]

Thinking about this, and in light of some of the recent posts, I'm going to modify my opinion about boot camp for wayward males. Rather than push them together in a testosterone zone with other shouty, manic, aggressive men, trying to stamp out their macho tendencies by exposing them to iron discipline, we ought to be looking at ways in which we could normalise the way they interact with women. They need to get in touch with their feminine sides.

[ChavWivaLawDegree]

compulsory embroidery classes?

[Bellenden Belle]

Citizened - I think you might be gently ribbing me....

Why is it that we associate thinking and feeling and exploring with being feminine? You know, anger therapy is not a pretty sight - it can be raw, violent, and explosive - nowt feminine about it....

There's nothing gentle about challenging someone's behavviour - really challenging them to their very core - it's not a soft option.

[Guest]

I'm not sure it's about war zones or even necessarily fighting - if your young life hasn't had structure, boundaries or consequences for whatever reason, national service or something with a similar structure could well provide it. Frivolous example perhaps, but I quite liked that TV series 'Bad Lads Army' for that reason: although the first episodes focused on the ones who clearly were too indulged to be able to go along with it, you could see some of those who did really gained self-respect, changed their values and clearly looked to the corporals and sargeants as father figures.

Of course the other activity that traditionally provides boys with discipline, a sense of achievement, an outlet for their energy and access to male mentors is sport. Over the years I've known a few single mothers whose sons were kept out of trouble by football. Perhaps the Government could reconsider compulsory daily sport in school (might also help the obesity problem).

[SteveT]

It may not be about war zones but it is all about discipline.

When they lost control of the classrooms the eventual spin-off is losing control of the labour force.

Strikes became much more prevalent in the seventies and eighties, and the long term consequences are, we no longer have a skilled labour force.

We have an excess of unemployable degree students, and yet we have to import competent builders from Poland to maintain our properties.

A good many of the people I employed were arrogant and obnoxious. Doing a menial job is seen as demeaning, but I was taught 'there is nothing demeaning about honest work' and to be grateful to have any job.

[Tony.London Suburbs]

Surely a great deal of the "skilled Labour Force" has,sadly,deserted the Good Ship SS Blighty! 2.7 Million since Labour came to power....and 5.5 Million over a longer period...and to qualify to get into the Countries that have most benefitted i.e Oz/USA/Canada one has to have certain skills or qualifications.

Still on the bright side a Star Is Born at Wimbledon...

Ladeez and Genelmen I Give You Miss Laura Robson:Junior Girls Singles Wimbledon Champion!:)

[Marmora Man]

Having a military background I can certainly remember examples of "bad lads" coming good having joined the services. However, it's not the military, square bashing, discipline aspect that generates the turnaround but the sense of purpose, focus, training and skills imparted and role models that demonstrate what success looks like and how to get there.

One of my friends was "Origami Hari San" or FCPO Coxswain Oliver Harrison Royal Navy who was a perfect example of this. Now unfortunately dead from an early cancer he was brought up in real poverty and deprivation in Manchester area. He had Love & Hate tattooed across his knuckles and worse elsewhere - all this before he joined the Navy. He became as senior as it was possible to be in non commissioned ranks, was married with two children he doted on. He was, as the senior non commissioned officer in my ship, responsible for all organisational, ceremonial and disciplinary matters. His nickname Origami came from a description of his style if you let him down - he would "fold you up like a bit of paper". However, he looked after the crew, regularly ensured youngsters were looked after and given good advice. He freely admitted he had been a dangerous to know yob and hooligan who only joined the Navy when a magistrate gave him two alternatives - join up or go to gaol, and that the Navy had become his family and saved him from a life of violence and crime.

[Asset]

I don't think that a military style treatment would work for all. What about kids who are bad due to low self esteem? More sensitive kids could end up feeling worse about themselves after a boot camp experience.

Gawd knows how to engender more respect and consideration for others in people. It's a vicious cycle of learned bahaviour, kids that are treated with no respect grow up to be people who have no respect and so on.

I don't think the lack of corporal punishment has any particular bearing on things, I don't agree with it myself.

I think the practice of bringing young offenders into contact with victims and attempting to give them some sort of realisation of the impact of their behaviour along with community service is a better method than beating it into them.

[Tony.London Suburbs]

Over the decades I've spoke to many a villain on The Terraces or at Racing and at other events and I can assure you that the idea of apologising to the victims of any robbery is laughable to them...One said "its great,I just look remorseful,say Sorry "genuinely" and b4 you know it I'mabout again to continue my career!"...not exactly verbatim but close enough...if they do the "crime" and get caught they expect to do the "time"....Occupational Hazard,innit?:)

[ChavWivaLawDegree]

The kids we are talking about are hardly in the same league as the kind of career criminals you are talking about.

[Tony.London Suburbs]

ChavWivaLawDegree Wrote:

The kids we are talking about are hardly in the same league as the kind of career criminals you

are talking about.

...They are indeed only "Vauxhall Conference" at this stage but unless the right deterrents are in place I fear that many will make The Premiership:(