Wanted - Dietician / Nutritionist (Lounged)

[karter]

This is turning into a catfight. I love it. Let's throw some mud on these girls.

[bawdy-nan]

It seems to me that the thread has brought out lots of the really big problems around this issue.

The "3 day" "training", the mixing up of terms, the idea that its a "therapy" that can "give you a bit of a lift" when poor advice can have dire medical effects.

A light google of "nutritional therapists" will bring charlatans to the surface like bubbles in a glass of fizzy water.

On the other hand, Monica's spirited defence and evident care, passion and committment to enhanced study lead me to revise my original, deeply sceptical opnions a little. I would feel happy taking advice from Monica, at least.

I think that if BANT and the new register want to be taken seriously they really should apply some rigour to the process of registration and expect that they are likely to lose a lot of under qualified and dangerous quacks and moountebanks from their ranks.

[SeanMacGabhann]

Exactly the reason this sort of debate is a Good Thing. I too think Monica's contributions to the debate are great - partly because someone needs to make the case she makes but also for the fact that, despite still disagreeing with most of what she says, I find her passionate and I always read what she writes

[NatashaD]

..and you always seem to read what I write too, SeanMacGabhann.....sigh....

[monica]

Sean you charmer I thank you. And Bawdy nan thanks for your thoughts, I completely understand where most people come from when there are charlatans involved. However The Register will protect the public because of the registration process and the fact that the Register will only allow therapists who have had at least 3 years min of training.

Natasha you are a sweetheart and thanks for your support.

[Jamma]

Monica's comments would surely be better if instead of or alongside said passion she could provide some answers.

I can't think of a single instance when I've wished a health professional was more passionate rather than say sober and scientific. But I'll bear in mind the Monica approach next time I'm at the doctors -

Doctor Anu: You've got acute lumbago and sciatica so I'm prescribing painkillers and recommend you get some physiotherapy.

Me: And how will that help?

Doctor Anu: I don't answer questions from people I don't like.

Me: You don't have to like me, I'm just asking how it works.

Doctor: That Sean Mcgamadamadingdong's nice isn't he?

[monica]

Jamma did i touch a nerve, id see a doctor about that, there relax and have some reiki, you know you want too

[SeanMacGabhann]

I'm more intersted in keeping monica involved in the debate, rather than saying how much I (don't) agree with what her argument is. Having been here before, the trend is that right about now, monica picks up her ball and leaves - which leaves us with no-one to counter. I agree with you Jamma that her arguments could be less defensive and more informative

As for her saying I'm nice - hmm.... more often than not it's the opposite view I receive but still

[monica]

Sean I totally agree with you, but i will not give her the time of day because quite frankly I just dont like her agressive manner, I may be defensive but she is agressive, and that attitude does not sit with me. I have been informative,as have others regarding Nutrition. bio is below, My lecturer in Msc Nutrition

Dr Denise Mortimore

Position:

Senior Lecturer in Applied Biology and Human Nutrition

Academic History

DHD (Tiverton, 1992)

PGCE (Manchester, 1979)

PhD Genetics (Lancaster, 1978)

BSc (Hons) Biological Sciences (Lancaster, 1975)

Current Teaching

Nutrition and Nutritional Therapy

Courses:

BSc in Biological Sciences

BSc in Human Nutrition

MSc in Nutritional Therapy

RSPH (Royal Society for the Promotion of Health) - short courses: Foundation Certificate in Nutrition; Advanced Diploma in Nutrition

Modules:

Physiology of Plants and Animals (BIOS1004)

Introduction to Nutrition (BIOS1009)

Environmental Nutrition (BIOS2022)

Food Safety (BIOS2025)

Mammalian Reproduction (BIOS3010)

Nutrition Through the Life Cycle (BIOS3025)

Public Health Nutrition (BIOS3027)

Human Nutrition and Disease Prevention (BIOS3028)

Diet Therapy 1 (NUTH4001)

Diet Therapy 2 (NUTH4002)

Diet Therapy 3 (NUTH4003)

Functional Medicine (NUTH4004)

Practitioner Development (NUTH4005)

Diet Therapy Clinical Practice (NUTH4006)

Nutritional Therapy Advanced Independent Study (NUTH4008)

[SeanMacGabhann]

When Jamma started the discussion again a few days back I said that she (is Jamma a she? I imagined a he) was direct but not rude - I still say that's largely true

Jamma isn't arguing with your credentials - just with the possible application of some of them. Maybe not by you but others in your profession - and everytime a question is asked it does tend to be met with a fluffy rebuttal coupled with a wounded tone rather than a "here's a good example of what I mean"

Examples are great - let's have some. From both sides

[monica]

Im sure jamma is a she, shes just too bxxxxy to be a he, I have plenty of examples

[Jamma]

He or she I've been on holiday. Yet Monica has still to answer the simple question of why she's a nutritionist and not a dietician if the two are so alike. It's really not a trick question.

I could question that biog Monica posted because there are some serious questions to be asked about it but that'd be to diverge from the nub of the issue.

I'm simply asking direct simple questions but just like if you question someone's religious beliefs (at the risk of really veering off topic) those beliefs don't stand up to scrutiny so the only defence is indignance and refusing to answer said questions.

I rest my case

[david_carnell]

Example:

Gillian McKeith - Nutritionist

Not that I'd tar you with that brush Monica (as I'm sure you have little interest in people's poo) but her fraudulent qualifications and pseudo-science wibble about photosynthesis in the gut etc do the nutritionist's lot no favours.

If I could perhaps ask Jamma's question in a nicer way:

Why did you not choose to become a medically recognised dietician rather than a nutritionist with all the problems and issues that brings? Surely you must have known the lack of respect your profession gets from large quarters of the scientific and medical professions?

[monica]

David I will answer you, because you have asked me nicely.

The reason I became a Nutritional Therapist is because of my own medical condition. Allopathic medicine would treat my condition by suppressing my Symptoms. I felt that I needed to look after myself in order to have a more normal life.

So I turned to Nutritional Therapy.

The subject matter gave me the opportunity to research my condition and understand it. Part of Nutritional therapy is clinical Nutrition. In the first Year you observe clients in clinic with a Qualified Nutritional Therapist. In the second year, you are in clinic with the clients and a qualified therapist, observing, but also taking part in the consultation.

In the third year, you are in clinic with the client heading the consultation under supervision of the qualified therapist, whilst being observed by other students. You need to aquire 500 hours of clinic to help give you a better understanding of what is happening to the client.

Presenting symptoms on Irritable bowel syndrome for instance can be constipation, Diahorrea, Constant abdominal cramping. But not all cases of IBS are the same, so clinical experience helps you differentiate what is Irritable bowel.

If there is a medic on the EDF please give us some input.

So the reason why I chose Nutritional therapy is because I never considered Dietician/Public Nutrition, I did it for self, myself.

[Jamma]

Oh Monica. If you're coming up with this stuff just to keep me entertained then I'm very grateful.

Allopathic medicine? You mean actual medicine. The only people that use the term allopathic are nutjobs and quacks looking to differentiate between medicine that's shown to work and their line of work, which is not shown to work. I love the way you seem to think hanging round a clinic makes it proper medicine. I could open up a nutritional therapy 'clinic' in my kitchen this afternoon and then invite folk to hang around learning my methods but doesn't mean those people would know anything about actually helping people with serious medical conditions.

I think what you mean is that you turned to nutritional therapy because proper medicine was honest and said it couldn't 'cure' you whereas nutritional therapy can make entirely outlandish claims and no-one is going to pull them up for it.

[monica]

JAMMA My darling you really are arrogant enough to think this. You do not know me, you have no idea of my condition. I suggest you wind your neck in before you say something you will regret How Fxxxxxx dare you.

I suggest you research the poly clinic at westminster university before you come out with crap you normally do you nasty horrible woman

[muffintop]

This argument has been going on long enough now, it is now getting quite personal and deteriorating into quite a spiteful argument, which I am sure is quite upsetting, why don't you both just agree to disagree on your opinions, stop with the personal attacks as you really do not "know" eachother, not nice at all.

Can't we all just be friends! >:D<

[monica]

muffintop i have tried toclet it go, but he/she wont let it go, its become personal because of the comments made towards my posts. As for friends life is too short for being friendly with a person like Jamma

[monica]

Im going to sign off from this thread because im bored. So please dont feel Jamma that I have nothing to say or no sensible answers to give. I simply am Bored with you. This started as a thread in the wanted section and its now become ridiculous. I am proud of my achievements and my goals. So this is the end ok. bye

[Jamma]

Well here's the thing. I didn't get personal, I tried to discuss the issues, the science but as always with such discussions the woo-merchants have to make it personal by referring to their experience. That's not how science is done.

And I'm not inclined to let it go because this stuff is important. So what if a few people's feelings get hurt along the way. If those people are pushing remedies and treatments that demonstrably don't work then I'm fine with that.

There is a lot at stake here. At the risk of getting into hyperbole there are problems in the world today caused by people believing in nonsense. If they looked at the evidence and made a decision based on that we'd all get on a lot better.

This stuff is important, it's not about scoring points off people who are sadly not equipped to know better it's about creating a better world. And for that reason I'll fight the forces of superstition and unreason wherever they may occur and whenever they cross my path. (Just ask the Catholic who sits opposite me at work - poor girl)

[Moos]

Jamma, I have no idea whether this discussion is going to continue, but you appear to very passionate about it and so perhaps it will. Your enthusiasm and rigour are certainly laudable. However - and I have no agenda with regard to alternative medicine or the like - your tone in some posts across as hostile, aggressive and dismissive, all of which are suggestive of emotional rather than rational argument. You might consider whether Monica or others might be or have been more willing to engage in debate with you had you taken a less provocative line, and perhaps for future debates you might find it a more fruitful approach.

An example - using the term 'woo-merchant' (although it is funny!).

[david_carnell]

Indeed. In future try not to use this phrase but instead replace it with more socially acceptable alternatives such as wibble-peddlar or snake-oil-salesman.

Moos makes a good point though. She's quite good at those. Although most of her stuff is often wibble (or should that be woo) as well! ;-)

[Moos]

Although it is free woo, and I only claim to be a doctor at parties, in order to get people to take their clothes off.*

*an example of some wibble

[indiepanda]

Jamma Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Well here's the thing. I didn't get personal, I

> tried to discuss the issues

If calling someone a nutjob and quack isn't getting personal I'd hate to see you when you are getting personal.

As for the notion that conventional medicine is the answer to everything... O don't buy it. My sister suffered from eczema for years, the doctor just gave her steroid cream - not great given it thins the skin and hers was particularly bad round the eyes where the skin is already thin enough.

The alterative practioner she saw when she had run out of patience with her doctor diagnosed lactose intolerance, she cut out dairy products and very quickly her skin cleared up and it hasn't recurred. I don't suppose the alternative practioner's methods had been subject to the same testing as the conventional doctors, but the result was much better.

I'm not naive, sure there are plenty of charletans out there who do rob people blind with misguided notions that don't help anyone, but I wouldn't tar everyone with the same brush.

[cdonline]

indiepanda Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Jamma Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> > As for the notion that conventional medicine is

> the answer to everything... O don't buy it. My

> sister suffered from eczema for years, the doctor

> just gave her steroid cream - not great given it

> thins the skin and hers was particularly bad round

> the eyes where the skin is already thin enough.

>

That is rubbish. Is there anybody in the medical profession who believes that they have the answer to every medical condition. To compare the level of training gained with a 3 year degree in, as you call it "conventional", un-conventional medicine is absurd.

When you find yourself with an illness that might posssibly kill you, rather than just having a skin rash, believe me, I would not put my medical well-being in the hands of anybody who was not a fully qualified doctor.