A plea to cyclists

[davidk]

... by telling the blameless person that she almost ran down to change his behaviour next time?

[fatcats]

If you want to interpret it like that, go ahead.

For me, the best way to look at it is what I said earlier, 90% of accidents can be avoided by the person whose fault it isn't.

Ultimately, if you get knocked off your bike and are killed, you're dead. It might be someone's else's fault entirely, but I'm not sure that would be much comfort to a dead person.

[dennis]

It's nonsense to say she blames the cyclist.

She's considered the incident and openly and honestly admits to her error.

[davidk]

It's a culture problem. Magistrates and coroners still deem it acceptable to reference whether a cyclist was wearing high-viz or a helmet even when it is completely irrelevant to the incident. This doesn't happen in any other transport mode.

[Tommy1000]

I understand what you're saying, but I don't think the OP is lecturing, preaching or anything of the sort. She appears to be making a suggestion that could save someone's life.

No-one's saying that the cyclist isn't behaving legally, but it's plainly debateable whether not wearing more visible clothing etc is 'safe'.

If it had been a near miss with a car then, no, the OP would probably not have posted something equivalent. But then it's not car crashes which have been dominating the news for two weeks. There are also different things at stake: the same situation involving cars is far less likely to result in the tragic loss of life. This also might make such a plea less likely.

Edited for typos.

[davidk]

I've yet to see any evidence that wearing high-viz makes any difference. Drivers looking, and looking again, does. As thankfully, the OP did on this occasion.

[Tommy1000]

Jesus. How about both?

Talk about cutting your nose off to spite your face.

[savage]

-- moved topic --

[Loz]

There seems to be a lot of reasonable, sensible, intelligent cyclists on here that understand safety.

And there's davidk.

ETA - fixed as per below. He might be unreasonable 99.9% of the time, but he can recognise his own moniker spelt incorrectly.

[davidk]

I understand that high-viz jackets don't constitute safety - Will that do?

Also. You need the "k" key. Two to the right of the "h".

[spark67]

Burbage Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> spark67 Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > I don't go with the idea that drivers do not

> give

> > a wider berth to cyclists with helmets on

>

> Here you go: http://opus.bath.ac.uk/9332/

Thanks for the info ...interesting reading, but still hold by my statement, I see no difference in drivers behavior, as a cyclist myself on `London's road for over 15 years, and as driver it makes no odds to me, I give a wide berth what ever, helmet or no helmet...long or short hair, I can only speak from my own personal experience, maybe i'm in a minority ;)

[spark67]

I see from the standard this evening that the police are going to be out in force monday at key junctions to stop law breaking drivers and cyclists, be interesting to see what the results of this will be. I for one will be glad to see a crack down on cyclists wearing headphones..as a cyclists I often come across one or two totally oblivious to me coming up behind them, or breaking suddenly without checking or noticing other cyclists or traffic..I mean how can you hear a lorry or bus thundering up behind you ? It's totally irresponsible, it's illegal for drivers for the same reasons.

[spider69]

Why announce that you are going to have a crack down?

Just turn up out of the blue

Stil cannot upset people

[Applespider]

I'm quite happy with the police being there cracking down but glad that they are now saying it is everyone including motorists in ASLs rather than how it's felt the last couple of mornings with cyclists being hauled over to be told about helmets (which aren't obligatory by law) while motorists ignore the ASLs. It did feel a little like victim-bashing at that point. Not to mention them picking some awkward positions; yesterday the police positioning at Vauxhall Bridge forced all the cyclists into the main flow of traffic which I'd reckon was slightly more dangerous than the odd bod not having their magic fluorescent vest on.

Having said all that, it's common sense to ensure you are visible - something bright (not necessarily screaming yellow/pink), lights on dreary days and nights - since I'd rather be alive than in the right but dead or seriously injured. I have long hair that's visible in or out a helmet but since I don't cycle often without a helmet, I can't say I've noticed a difference in how I'm treated. The only time I've noticed getting a lot of extra room was one day this summer where I lost my cycling shorts during the day and ended up cycling home in what turned out to be a very short sundress! However, that's not really an safety option at this time of year.

It's also worth noting that there are a heck of a lot of good drivers out there. I must get passed by a few hundred vehicles on my way to work and there are probably only a couple every other day that I actually want to swear at. I wave or give a thumbs up to just as many who are uber considerate.

[spark67]

I second the bit about the good drivers, I come across more good drivers then bad which I'm relieved to say. & need to remind myself that. I think the bad ones in the minority just stand out in your mind more when you have a scary brush with one.

[davidk]

Perhaps also therefore worth noting that there are a heck of a lot of good cyclists out there too? With or without day-glo clothing and polysterene hats?

[LadyDeliah]

Are they going to be cracking down on motorists on phones too?

I doubt they will stop as many drivers as cyclists because cyclists are easier to stop and don't block up the road as much when they are stopped.

I'd also like to see a crackdown on HGV drivers who haven't had the breaks in driving required by law with prosecutions for breaches.

[davidk]

A couple of good articles currently doing the rounds that touch on a lot of what is being discussed on this thread:

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/tomchiversscience/100246626/boris-dont-ban-cycling-with-headphones-youll-make-people-die-younger/

http://t.co/qalInx4ZFO

[Tommy1000]

Interesting reads.

I hadn't realised that wearing helmets was such a bone of contention, though I did know it wasn't a legal requirement. Granted it's not going to help in a number of situations, but it would in some. I would certainly wear one if I cycled in London.

I'm not sure whether or not legislating is the answer for wearing headphones, it's a difficult one. Comparisons with driving a car with the radio on, for example, don't withstand much scrutiny. You're already sitting in a vehicle with it's own engine noise and, in having a radio on, are not blocking out much else (notwithstanding that yes it is a distraction in exactly the same way). Wearing headphones on a bike, however, you're depriving yourself of so much more. The author of that piece is weighing up a few extra weeks, months or years on a (potentially great) number of people's lives in old age against a possible premature death of a cyclist caused by wearing headphones. I'm not sure those two things are as easily weighed up as suggested.

It's beyond me why it's deemed appropriate in press releases to include statements of the kind mentioned when they're seemingly not relevant at all.

[Knomester]

JohnL / VeronicaSawyer - Since reading this thread yesterday, I came across two large vehicles with 'this vehicle is turning left' sounding yesterday evening and this morning. Perhaps these sound warnings are becoming more common than we think?

[davidk]

On headphones, I can only give my own experience. I cycle about 20 miles per day in London. Usually wearing headphones (and not wearing a helmet). Sometimes listening to podcasts/spoken word/audio books, sometimes listening to music. I don't feel that the wearing of the headphones deprives me of the ability to hear what is going on. I can still hear fellow cyclists around me, I can still hear cars, buses, motorbikes etc etc. Obviously, the inputs are at a sensible volume to allow for comprehension whilst still being able to hear ambient noise. If anything, I find that wearing well fitting earbuds actually cuts out a lot of the wind noise that you get on a bike (especially if you have a helmet on - the straps create a great deal of turbulence around the ears) allowing me to concentrate on the noises that are important.

It's also quite an interesting experiment in how the brain functions. I can quite easily bimble along the road listening to whatever is playing. But I'll find my subconscious completely tuning it out when I am going through a busy junction or approaching a situation where I need greater awareness.

In summary: A lot more complicated and nuanced than The Telegraph and the Standard would have you believe. Who'd have thought?!

[jimbo1964]

A good piece in the Huffington Post.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/matt-glass/london-cyclist-deaths_b_4298701.html

[LadyDeliah]

What about cyclists who are deaf? Should they be banned from cycling?

I listen to Radio 4, podcasts and music on my bike, but I only wear the left small ear plug type headphone.

I have been doing this for years and I do not believe it's impeded my ability to cycle defensively at all. As davidk says above, we can all filter out unnecessary noise to concentrate on what we need to hear and the level of noise is low in anycase.

Plus experienced cyclists will use their vision far more than their ears or they will fail to notice cyclists coming up behind / beside them or pedestrians stepping out etc.

[spark67]

Some good points about headphones...from people who wear them of course. I am speaking from my own experience coming across cyclists wearing headphones....one case of one not hearing my shouting and bell ringing as they pulled out of a junction without noticing me feet away on my bike, causing me to break suddenly and my back wheel to swerve outward ....of course they could've been choosing to ignore me.

as a partially deaf cyclists ( my left ear many) I tend to concentrate more on listening, I just think if I had headphones on It would distract from my concentration...it does when I'm walking as a recent lampost would agree :)

And Ps I do notice a lot of good cyclist btw too, and see more stopping at lights then I do going through them, just the ones who don't who stand out.

[mlteenie]

Right - firstly the word is spelt 'braking'.

Sorry to hear about the near miss for both parties' sakes.

As a long time London cyclist and cycling instructor, I would have to point out (and agree with other comments here) that there is no point being dressed head to foot in LEDs/hi-viz/helmet/light clothing, etc if your road positioning is dangerous.

As I teach riders, the top three things to keep you safe (ie. SEE AND BE SEEN) are:

Look back - especially over the right shoulder (or the appropriate side when moving across or turning). I am appalled how many riders do not do this on London's roads. It is the MOST IMPORTANT thing.

Ride a width of a door and a little bit more away from parked vehicles (slowing down if necessary at pinch points).

Cover your brake levers in case of emergency stops.

These along with well-charged bright lights and a well-maintained bike are the absolute basics to keep you happy and safe anywhere. Cycle training is available in all boroughs as far as I know, and usually free or very cheap.

Happy responsible riding, folks!