Pathetic old racist fart on Frogley road (Lounged)

[pk]

Tony.London Suburbs Wrote:

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> pk Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> >

> > so you think all black men run fast (and no

> white

> > do) and all black men are poor at swimming (and

> no

> > white men are)

> .....Co-incidently pk I have just answered that on

> my next "Dancing?" Point!

> By The Way if you disagree roughly half the 100

>

you're answer seems to be that "relating to one thing and not others" means the same as "as a group with exceptions" and i don't think that that's true (when using the words to mean when that actually mean)

[Tony.London Suburbs]

I'll tell you a true story pk..In around 1977 I met a Girl(around 20) at work called Linda..I said Black Guys(as a group) are obviously better dancers.She(fresh from Winchester to London) saod NO!(Having met probably seen 5 Black Guys in her whole life).I said to her "if I meet you in 10 years you will have changed your tune"..Well I met her 20 years later and reminded her...she laughed and said "No Contest!"..B)

[Sue]

Isn't the point that you shouldn't make an assumption about an individual just because they happen to belong to a particular group?

On average women might be less strong than men, but that doesn't mean that you can't be a woman who can lift heavy weights. For example.

Nobody (I think) is suggesting that there aren't characteristics which are associated with members of a particular group as a whole - that's where stereotypes come from in the first place, after all.

But don't mind me - I've got no idea where this thread is going now, and some of the previous comments have left me gobsmacked :-S

[Tony.London Suburbs]

pk:To avoid any ambuiguity I'm saying that based on my 54 years experience its BLATANTLY obvious to me that certain Groups(as a whole) have certain attributes...The White Guys that I have seen who can "bust a move" are the "exceptions" to the White mass,sadlyB)..the Black Guys who can not dance well and with "natural" rhythm are very much a minority.Thats just one example in what I am saying.

Naturally one has an open mind and takes EVERYONE on their individual merits but I have lived my life over the decades by clearly noting differences between Men(as a Group) and Women(as a Group)..as another example of "stereotyping"...

[pk]

Tony.London Suburbs Wrote:

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> I'll tell you a true story pk..In around 1977 I

> met a Girl(around 20) at work called Linda..I said

> Black Guys(as a group) are obviously better

> dancers.She(fresh from Winchester to London) saod

> NO!(Having met probably seen 5 Black Guys in her

> whole life).I said to her "if I meet you in 10

> years you will have changed your tune"..Well I met

> her 20 years later and reminded her...she laughed

> and said "No Contest!"..B)

so linda thought black men weren't better dancers and then 20 years later she thought otherwise, and then what?

[Tony.London Suburbs]

Funnily enough Sue I have just covered your point.Naturally everyone should be looked at as an individual and its essential to have an open positive mind about everyone.That des not however stop me from noting that as a Group there ARE differences between Men and Women,for example.

[taper]

Natural rhythm eh Tony? White men won the 100m in 72 and 80. And the 200 in 68, 2000. More besides. And what of the middle distances? Coe, Ovett used to dominate; then north africans; before them Finns and Czechs. What does this say of racial traits? Chuff all. The notion of race is biolgically meaningless.

[pk]

Tony.London Suburbs Wrote:

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> Funnily enough Sue I have just covered your

> point.Naturally everyone should be looked at as an

> individual and its essential to have an open

> positive mind about everyone.That des not however

> stop me from noting that as a Group there ARE

> differences between Men and Women,for example.

has anyone suggested that you shouldn't note actual differences between groups where they exist (as a whole, with exceptions)?

[Tony.London Suburbs]

pk Wrote:

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> Tony.London Suburbs Wrote:.She(fresh from Winchester to London)

> > so linda thought black men weren't better dancers

> and then 20 years later she thought otherwise, and

> then what?

.....The significance pk was the first comment above..1970's Winchester(and probably even now) was NOT Multi-Racial so she just based her view NOT on observation or perception or First-Hand experience over a long period BUT on an idealistic,simplistic view that we are "all the same"..THEN she acquired 20 years of "Observation/Perception/Experience" and "miraculously".forgive me:)) she formed a completely different view...The first was "rose-tinted" idealogy the second,final view was pragmatic! THATS "then what!"..B)

[Tony.London Suburbs]

taper Wrote:

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> Natural rhythm eh Tony? White men won the 100m in

> 72 and 80. And the 200 in 68, 2000. More

> besides. And what of the middle distances? Coe,

> Ovett used to dominate; then north africans;

> before them Finns and Czechs. What does this say

> of racial traits? Chuff all. The notion of race

> is biolgically meaningless.

.....taper:You can NOT seriously believe that!...I KNOW Alan Wells won it..I'm an old ++++ who saw his first Olympics in Tokyo,1964...I did NOT say it was "impossible" for White Guys to Win the "sprints"..empthsis on the "sprints"..I vividly recall the halcyon days of Coe/Cram/Ovett the Middle-Distance English Triumverate!...doesn't that show you something?..That were experts at Middle Distance NOT sprints...The Kenyans/Ethopians had a massive advantage because of the "Altitude"...not that I've got an "Altitude" problem:))

[Tony.London Suburbs]

taper:To continue for a moment..If you went into ANY Inner London School where there were 50% Black and 50% White Children and every child had to Race the 100 Metres and,say,there were 100 kids a year with The Winner earning 100 Points down to the last kid gaining one point.If you tallied up EVERY School in Inner London I'm absolutely certain that "as a Group" the Black kids would Win the 100 Metres every time with no exceptions...however if the Race was run over a Mile then the results would be much closer,to say the least.

Do you agree?(tu) or (td)

[mockney piers]

So black men dance better, jews are more likely to be circumcised, Spaniards* are more likely to live with their parents until a late age...blah blah blah.

Any of this going anywhere?

Fact remains Shu and Mrs Shu were upset by a remark and I think justifiably so.

The comment almost certainly came from ignorance and crassness rather than out and out racism (and I'm pretty sure the bloke knew it would have been irksome rather than charming**) but so what, a bit of decency costs nothing.

* An old Spanish joke goes, "how do you know Jesus was a Spaniard? He lived with his mum until he was 34."

**I'm inclined to agree that "Yo, Sushi" (a la Bush to Blair perhaps) would have at least had some sort of proto-wit about it

[taper]

Different population groups are clearly physically distinct, shaped by natural selection to suit their particular environments. But physical differences between human groups does not mean these differences can be reduced to racial distinctions, and certainly not skin colour. Apart from dancing and sprinting, what other traits do you put down to skin colour Tony?

[Jeremy]

You confuse me, Taper. Can you clarify the difference between "population groups" and racial groups in your statement?

You see, this is the kind of thing that really annoys me... refusing outright to recognise that top sprinters tend to be from African heritage... absurd. Naive, faux political correctness.

[coachkelly]

I'm not sure race always plays such a significant part in sporting achievements. I think background and circumstances also contributes a lot. For example, back in the forties and fifties many world class boxers were Italian American. This was because they came from very poor blue collar backgrounds. As time went by Italians became more succesful in American society and less of them got into boxing. They were replaced by black american boxers. This was simply because many of these boxers came from the ghetto. A similar argument could be applied to tennis, which is a predominantly white sport and has been for many years. This is because it's a middle class sport and not played in poor neighbourhoods.I'm sure many people ten years ago would have said black people couldn't play it and that white people were superior at this particular sport. However, the Williams sisters blew this argument out of the water. Harry Redknapp recently said that young black players were doing better then what he called 'lazy white boys'. It was a remarkable comment to make considering this is the sort of criticism that is usually reserved by some for black footballers (Ron Atkinson). What Redknapp said was that the black players worked harder and wanted it more. This doesn't mean they were physically superior, just that they had a better attitude. I think he was mainly referring to African players, who tend to come from extremely poor backgrounds. With regards to sprinting, the current number 1 british sprinter is a young white guy named Craig Pickering.

[lozzyloz]

Good post coachkelly. Your observation that "I think background and circumstances also contributes a lot" is bang on.

Btw Tony would you consider mixed race people to be superior at everything?

[taper]

You're confusing correlation and causality my friend. Look at some of the scientific literature before you dole out the ad hominem guff. It's a complex picture

[Brendan]

I'm better at getting sun burnt than the black guy sitting next to me but he would beat me hands down in an afro growing competition. So it all comes out in the wash I suppose.

[espelli]

Tony.London Suburbs Wrote:

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> taper:To continue for a moment..If you went into

> ANY Inner London School where there were 50% Black

> and 50% White Children and every child had to Race

> the 100 Metres and,say,there were 100 kids a year

> with The Winner earning 100 Points down to the

> last kid gaining one point.If you tallied up EVERY

> School in Inner London I'm absolutely certain that

> "as a Group" the Black kids would Win the 100

> Metres every time with no exceptions...however if

> the Race was run over a Mile then the results

> would be much closer,to say the least.

> Do you agree?(tu) or (td)

Tony, in my years of experience in Inner London schools one thing that I have learnt is that analysing any apparent difference between an individual's performance (sporting, social or academic) by their race is at best simplistic and at worst dangerous. I am not being painfully PC in saying this, it is based on my daily dealings with young people over the years.

Going back to the original post, the habit that some people have of shouting their unasked for opinions or greetings in the street is truly offensive and quite common. It is interesting that I only get things said to me when I am walking on my own, and never when I am with my partner. If anyone has a good idea for something to say back to these mindless, ill-mannered idiots, I would be delighted to try it and report back on its efficacy.

[Jeremy]

coachkelly Wrote:

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> With regards to sprinting, the

> current number 1 british sprinter is a young white

> guy named Craig Pickering.

But the *fastest* british sprinter at the moment is Dwain Chambers. And the fastest british sprinter ever is Linford Christie. The 100m medals at the olympics will probably go to the Bolt, Powell and Gay. Fastest 100m ever, Bolt. Fastest 200m and 400m ever, Johnson.

Of course this is circumstantial, but it certainly looks like a trend worth considering to me.

To be honest I don't really care who the fastest sprinters are, I just don't like the way people are made to feel guilty for suggesting that there may be physical differences between races.

[Sue]

espelli Wrote:

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> If anyone has a good idea for something to say back

> to these mindless, ill-mannered idiots, I would be

> delighted to try it and report back on its

> efficacy.

xxxxxx

Off-topic, but if anyone ever says "cheer up darling" to you, or words to that effect, "my mother's just died actually" usually shuts them up :)

[Tony.London Suburbs]

Out to work now.I'll contribute more either later tonight or at the weekend as this fascinates me.

"Population Groups" taper?.Please elaborate.Thanks.

[coachkelly]

Dwain Chambers is a drugs cheat. This has to be taken into account when considering his times. For the record Britain has had four gold medalists at 100 metres. Reggie Walker, Harold Abrahams, Alan Wells and Linford Christie. 3 of them are white and the only black runner, Linford Christie, was found to be a drugs cheat. Although he wasn't done for taking drugs when he won his gold, I think it's fair to assume he probably was doing it then and was lucky to get away with. So was he a great sprinter because he was black or because he was a drugs cheat? In fact, many of the great sprinters of the past 20 years have been drugs cheats. Ben Johnson, Carl Lewis, Justin Gatlin. They are also black. Could a factor in the dominance of black sprinters also be attributed to the fact that many of them took performance enhancing drugs rather then some physical difference to white sprinters?

[Jeremy]

coachkelly Wrote:

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> Could a factor in the dominance of black

> sprinters also be attributed to the fact that many

> of them took performance enhancing drugs.

I don't think that's really a fair comment, seeing as almost all modern top-flight 100m runners are black. Maybe no top level white 100m runners have been found guilty, simply because there aren't any!! No white man has reached the olympic 100m final since 1980.

[Keef]

Chambers may have cheated, but he is still a fast bloke!