Racism and homophobia - where we are in 2008

[Brendan]

I opened a box the other day and there were green, yellow and red ones all mixed in. Together. No lies. There right in the middle, a bleddy, blue one! I couldn?t believe mar ars.

Edited: for the benefit of our short wave listeners.

[capt_birdseye]

Paperclips and Bulldog Clips: where are we in late 2008 (around tea-time)?

[Tony.London Suburbs]

RosieH Wrote:

Tony, bless you, this is merely redressing the balance for all the years the female form has been hostage to the male gaze both on and off screen.

:))

Methinks sometimes "some" Wimmin' protesteth toooo much....:)-D

[RosieH]

ok, I take back the bless you. shan't lecture you now, but when women's and men's pay reaches anything approaching parity, or the percentage of rape cases that result in conviction reach double figures, or when a quarter of women don't suffer from domestic violence dying at a rate of two a week, then Tony my sweet, I shall join you in your beer swilling punctuation faces.

meantime I say, poor ickle men got to buy moisturiser now because that bloke from Lost says so, aww, diddums

(oh, do let me know when the protest gets "toooo much" - insert smiling punctuation face of your choice - can't quite bring myself to, hate the buggers)

[Huguenot]

Whilst an outrageous 1 in 4 women report suffering domestic abuse, a surprisingly unspoken 1 in 6 men also report similar attacks. Do we have a genetic prejudice that men are dishonest?

22% of women charged with domestic abuse remain unconvicted, whereas only 6% of men. Does this mean that men are subject to prejudices about guilt based on their gender?

Around 75% of murder victims are male.

Presumably they were behaving in a manner consequent to their genetic inheritance at the time, and were subject to their attackers' genetic prejudices. Does this mean they were killed for being men?

All crime is terrible, and single issue action groups seem to do little to further social integration. They divert time and resources from the real causes of violent crime - economic inequality, lack of education, lack of opportunity, social empowerment etc.

[MelbourneGr]

Well pointed out Huguenot.

So true, yet people often forget these things.

[mightyroar]

and what percentage of the murderers are male?

where did you get your 1 in 6 men who suffer 'similiar attacks'....... exactly how similiar to which attacks? how often?

22% of what total of convicted women? and 6% of what total of men?

you will always need single issue groups. those in the mainstream will always create the norm and without dissent you get homogeny.

[Huguenot]

90% of murders are committed by men, mightyroar. Are they victims of the gene pool?

You make my point quite well, because in the end you're quibbling over the stats. People pour enormous amounts of time and energy into trying to prove that their tribe is the most hard done by, they they deserve more, that anyone who says otherwise is lying or cheating. It's the politics of victimhood.

What are you going to do when I provide the source, question its validity? If men are accused more times than women is that because they're more guilty of the crime, or less likely to report their womenfolk? Who knows? I wasn't attempting to put the argument for men - I was illustrating that there's always another way of looking at things.

What surprises me is that given that all of these hate crimes are disproportionately represented amongst the economically disenfranchised and poorly educated, we haven't cottoned on yet? I guess it's not tribal enough? Maybe, possibly, these issues aren't about homophobia or sexism, maybe they're about poverty and ignorance?

Polarised politics is about pitchforks and torches. There isn't a politician in the world who wouldn't observe that the best way to unite a tribe is with a common enemy, and this is what single issue action groups generate. They distort perspectives. They create icons and badges, flags and pink bras to march behind. They leave reason and inclusiveness trodden underfoot.

It's neanderthal.

In the end we generate a nation of warring factions where compromise is considered weakness, and being satisfied with a solution just means you didn't set your targets high enough. What a miserable existence.

Give me well-informed convergent concessionary politics any day.

[SeanMacGabhann]

Not much to argue with in what you have written Huguenot, it's what you haven't written...

"Give me well-informed convergent concessionary politics any day." - for sure.. but historically we can see that some of the most progressive changes have happened not through this means but through direct action by a "minority" against a "common enemy". Wether it was segregation in the US or Voting rights here and elsewhere, power has had to be fought for and is seldom granted.

James when starting this thread was fighting his own corner and lost some support by seeming "one-issue" about the whole thing but essentially, within his narrow terms, he was correct to challenge the laissez-fair attitudes against gay people. Ditto all of the other groups mentioned in the subsequent arguments.. He stands accused of trying to "prove his tribe is the most hard done by" and this is clearly what irks you the most but I don't think it stands

In the wider argument of "hate crimes" poverty plays a large part for sure but anyone who has witnessed a drunk city-boy tearing into a homeless person near Charing Cross (as I have done several times) knows it's not just about that either. Ignorance is a trickier one because, compared to anytime in history, the vast majority of people have access to pretty much all the information they need.

[Brendan]

Hasn?t the human race been around for long enough for us to know that this whole battle of the sexes thing is never going to go away and will just manifest itself in whatever the idiom of the day is? So why really bother?

Personally all the way through my education and career I have never seen anyone denied opportunities on the basis of sex. Although I may just be too male to notice it which is a point I will concede. If a woman would like to explain my inadequacies in this area to me I will be more than happy to have a full and frank, face to chest, discussion with her about them.

[Keef]

So it's all down to the drink, I bloody knew it!

[*Bob*]

A girlfriend threw a saucepan at me once. Does that count as abuse?

I suppose a girl who occasionally throws saucepans at her boyfriend is probably considered 'feisty' whereas a boy who throws saucepans at his girlfriend needs is a scrote who needs sorting ahht by 'Fill' Mitchell and the boys.

In the interests of balance, I should add that I responded to the saucepan by throwing the remote control at her. It was a 'soft throw' (at the back of my mind I could forsee a trip to Argos to replace the remote) but even so the cover came off and the batteries fell out. I didn't sellotape it back on for two days in order to make an important point.

We're not together any more.

[SeanMacGabhann]

Theme to *Bob*'s previous relationship

[Brendan]

An ex-girlfriend once punched me in the face. A very good right-hook to the jaw that actually dazed me for a few seconds and left a bruise I might add. We were sitting opposite each other, at a table of about 10 friends, in a busy restaurant at the time.

I secretly enjoyed it.

[mightyroar]

Nice soundbites Huguenot - Are you using the forum direct from party conference?

I was 'quibbling' over stats because you made your point using stats.

Sean is exactly right that without campaigning groups you get no social change. Perhaps you think that women getting the vote was a mere distortion of perspective? And the abolition of slavery in America was just those naughty warring factions again.

nobody's going to argue with you about poverty and ignorance. But where do you think homphobia, sexism, racism and comes from but ignorance? And if noone in the mainstream cares enough to do anything but sweep this stuff under the carpet then how are you going to combat the ignorance?

[Keef]

An ex of mine took a running penalty kick at my face (I was sitting on the floor) and busted my nose open leaving a scar that is still visable. We stayed together a further 4 years!

Feckin scousers!

[Brendan]

You win!

[Keef]

Yeah man, I felt like a winner I can tell you!

[Tony.London Suburbs]

Does this count as abuse?

I asked my lodger(who had got hold of the remote) to please turn the sound down for a moment as I was going to use the phone "for a few seconds".I smiled as I said it and no-one could question the manner or attitude that I said those words.

Those are EXACTLY the words I used,as well.

With that she threw my Sky Remote at my face and caught me(I'm not lying) a half inch below my eye.I dread to think the damage that could have done to me.

2 days later we visited her big Sister who was returning to the rest of their Family in Kingston,Jamaica.

My "friend" was the personification of the sweetest Girl that you could wish to meet! Even her voice was much softer.

Just a quick question..if I had thrown the remote at her face,missing her eye by a half-inch would anything have come of it,I wonder?

[*Bob*]

Tony.. I love you

[Tony.London Suburbs]

Brendan Wrote:

An ex-girlfriend once punched me in the face. A very good right-hook to the jaw that actually dazed me for a few seconds and left a bruise I might add. We were sitting opposite each other, at a table of about 10 friends, in a busy restaurant

at the time.

I secretly enjoyed it.

Surely thats happened to everyone!

Had one on/off g/f(sort of) for 11 years who frequently attacked me within the first 45 seconds of me picking her up in my car.I think its called "sexual tension".I wound her up with my opening gambit(quite often and quite deliberately) and she wacked me in the side of the face.Seems more than fair.B)

[Tony.London Suburbs]

*Bob* Wrote:

Tony.. I love you

Thanks Babe:-$

but don't let the World know M8:)

[MelbourneGr]

Tony.London Suburbs Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Does this count as abuse?

> I asked my lodger(who had got hold of the remote)

> to please turn the sound down for a moment as I

> was going to use the phone "for a few seconds".I

> smiled as I said it and no-one could question the

> manner or attitude that I said those words.

> Those are EXACTLY the words I used,as well.

> With that she threw my Sky Remote at my face and

> caught me(I'm not lying) a half inch below my

> eye.I dread to think the damage that could have

> done to me.

> 2 days later we visited her big Sister who was

> returning to the rest of their Family in

> Kingston,Jamaica.

> My "friend" was the personification of the

> sweetest Girl that you could wish to meet! Even

> her voice was much softer.

> Just a quick question..if I had thrown the remote

> at her face,missing her eye by a half-inch would

> anything have come of it,I wonder?

Good points.

Firstly, I would hate think what your lodger would do if you asked her to turn the TV off :/

If it was reversed, you would be known as a woman beater even if she did need a good clout. I reckon most blokes would be too scared to admit they were pummelled by a woman and therefore suffer in silence.

[Tony.London Suburbs]

MelbourneGr Wrote:

Firstly, I would hate think what your lodger would do if you asked her to turn the TV off :/

B)...I wouldn't mind but there was no build-up to this whatsoever(!)

>

> If it was reversed, you would be known as a woman beater even if she did need a good clout. I reckon most blokes would be too scared to admit they were pummelled by a woman and therefore suffer in silence.

I made the mistake of criticising her once.She made I did not repeat my error! She screamed at me(without pause) for around 40 FOUR-RUDDY-0 Minutes!..Arms flailing everywhere.Luckily she was very slim and non-muscular as I might well have copped a right-hander.The screaming session put me in my place!::o

[Cassius]

I personally think the gender doesn't matter as much as the size differential!