Dulwich Park middle class?

[El Pibe]

Otta Wrote:

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> El Pibe Wrote:

> Didn't you come to ED from Balham? ;-)

Colliers Wood, though I have spent some time in balham when it was a complete hole.

But i actually meant I thought i was still looking around brixton, i hadn't realised it was a different bit of london.

[Earl Aelfheah]

Love it!

Louisa Wrote:

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> Sometimes I think this forum is obsessed with

> class.

>

> Louisa.

[miga]

.

[Zebedee Tring]

Miga, that's a much more mature and calm reaction to my earlier post than the one given by Penguin 69 (or whatever he/she is called).

[Sophron]

Very good incisive post Miga/Captain Obvious, sounds very similar to my own (and I'm sure many others)circumstances Bravo!

[LadyDeliah]

Louisa Wrote:

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> MrBen you always speak so much sense. I'm all for

> a croque Monsieur and chilled glass of Pinot

> Grigio. And to eat it in such a pleasant

> environment as the village makes it all the more

> enjoyable especially on a sunny day. But oh well,

> I guess if you've lived in leafy home county

> safety all your life and you make the big move to

> the 'culturally redundant' about to be gentrified

> inner london suburbs, a pop-up Armenian khorovat

> pit fired restaurant in the back streets of

> Peckham is kind of edgy. Don't forget, these

> people find the village dull cos it's the sort of

> place they've grown up in.

>

> Louisa.

I grew up in Birkenhead, armpit of the North, but I still find it dull.

I think ED isn't overly exciting either though, so maybe my high octane younger years just spoiled it for me, or maybe anywhere with an overwhelming majority of white middle class drones is a bit zzzzzz.

[Louisa]

Exactly LD. They may think they're adding culture to London, all they're doing is watering down its variety. The London I grew up in had so many characters and people with a story to tell. I'm sure Birkenhead was/is the same. I'm not suggesting all middle class people are dull, and that's why I love Dulwich Village personally, it has all the elements I associate with middle England culture and as a kid growing up in working class Peckham me and my friends were fascinated by the place. To accuse me of hating middle class people is totally misrepresenting what I'm saying. One of the main things in modern London id associate with this gentrification process is the ethnic mix of inner London once again changing, and as pointed out by LD predominantly white and middle class people becoming the dominant group in a former mixed working class neighbourhood. And it just seems to change the variety London does so well, and creates homogenous boring places.

Louisa.

[LadyDeliah]

I hate to say, I actually agree with you Louisa.

One of the problems I've seen with the drone view of life, is that they are often scared of their own shadows, so anyone or anything that is a bit noisy, smelly, entertaining or unusual to them is something to fear and not welcome in their drone-land. They bleat and wail until the authorities come to their aid and cleanse the neighbourhood of these terrifying individuals/pubs/shops etc.

Then they can continue living in their clean & sterile bubble, convincing themselves of their righteous place as masters of all they survey.

[Penguin68]

One of the problems I've seen with the drone view of life

Many people (of all classes) are frightened of change and would prefer to live in what they consider an orderly fashion - which means one where everyone takes the same viewpoint as theirs, and lives like them. Indeed, this is the down-side to group cohesiveness - the more cohesive and self-supportive a group is, the more they resist change or 'the strange'.

And 'noisy, smelly' actually isn't the same as 'entertaining' or 'unusual'. I lived next door to a vibrant restaurant, in Chelsea, many years ago - I didn't mind the occasional late night, or the cooking smells, (although I took the invasion of mice slightly less well). But the neighbour who chose to practice his drumming (full drum kit) next to my bedroom (terraced house) nightly between midnight and four - well there's noisy and noisy.

ED has changed in the quarter century I've lived here - sometimes to the better, sometimes not (as it impacts me) - but normally as a response to what was happening in it. Different people move in and out of the area, for different reasons.

I cannot agree (on personal experience) with Louisa's comment and as pointed out by LD predominantly white and middle class people becoming the dominant group in a former mixed working class neighbourhood - in my bit of ED (which is, according to the estate agents, quite an expensive bit) there are now noticeably more non-white families living there (if I take my immediate neighbours) than when I moved in - although they tend to be more employed in professional capacities, and are younger. My impression of ED is that it is now more ethnically mixed than 25 years ago (I have no statistics to support this) - and with a larger number of white (European) immigrants. So I am finding it more, not less, diverse as regards origins, though possibly less diverse as regards employment.

The upside of much of the change is that ED is now far more economically vibrant than 25 years ago, with more varied shops and food outlets and (I find) more interesting people from a wider range of backgrounds. Indeed I could argue that Louisa is harking back nostalgically to the 'good old days' of a working class monoculture and I am looking forward to diversity (although I know that this isn't what Louisa actually said, or meant).

We can all find good or bad things to say about the changes around us (and in this thread have done) - I have found the changes in the last 25 years to have been, on balance and house prices notwithstanding, more postitive than negative, and I do not see the area coalescing around a monocultural future as do others. I think ED at least (and probably the wider Dulwiches) belong to that part of London which is and will constantly be changing, sometimes faster than others.

[PokerTime]

Excellent post Penguin. Couldn't agree more.

[Sophron]

Indeed, very well put Penguin.

[LadyDeliah]

Way to kill a good barney penguin!

[aquarius moon]

AcedOut Wrote:

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> I earn a six figure salary. And so does my

> partner. We both own more than 50% of our

> properties at current mark-to-market (the rest

> being mortgaged). We are both in our 30's.

>

> I am working class, although most people would

> call me middle class.

>

> I can't stand people trying to fit themselves and

> others into boxes. Just enjoy life!

So if you are working class, how would you classify someone on a four figure salary, who doesn't own their own home, and is struggling to survive?

Under class? Lower Class? Bottom of the Class?

And whatever box they fit into, will they really be enjoying life?

[PokerTime]

A better illustration of that AQ is this. David and Victoria Beckham, both as working class as one can be, both now wealthier than even some of the most privileged. It can't be defined by wealth alone. Upbringing, education and childhood privilege all play more of a role surely. I have always thought of class being more cultural than environmental. Having said that though, the children of the Beckhams go to private school no doubt and interact with other privileged children. It could be argued that they will be middle class.

Years ago there was a debate I watched that discussed this. They were talking more in terms of successful business leaders than celebrities, but the question was asked, 'how many generations does it take after acquiring wealth to truly move up the class ladder?' The consensus seemed to be two generations.

I think it's part of human nature to be tribal and gather around the familiar. Personally nothing would panic me more than to spend a whole life in the same place, around the same people and doing the same job.

[aquarius moon]

If you acquire wealth it would take two generations to move up a place on the ladder?

So if you don't win the lottery or come into an inheritance you will stay bottom of the class forever.

Peckham Rye park is nicer than Dulwich park anyway.

[nxjen]

According to Wikipedia, Victoria Beckham's parents founded an electronics wholesale business and she and her siblings had a comfortable upbringing. Her nickname is Posh for a reason! As for the Beckhams' children, their family background is so unique, class just isn't going to be a relevant issue, they're way outside the whole "system".

[Burbage]

miga Wrote:

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> To me the old divisions of worker vs. capitalist

> don't ring true inside a service economy like

> ours, although there is clearly a power

> relationship between the wealthy and the poor.

This is the core of any debate on class. But I think it's less to do with absolute wealth than access to credit.

At it's simplest a person who owns a house can be worth less, in overall terms, than someone scraping by on a four-figure income. That's because they can secure loans and start a business on the basis of that house. On the basis of that business, they can take greater risks. Calling bankruptcy a 'safety-net' might be putting it a bit strong, but if things go belly-up, liabilities are limited, and there's a number of tax-efficiencies, grants and benefits that allow lifestyles to be leveraged.

Home-ownership isn't the only way to access credit. Employment is another, and mortgages, the usual first step on the credit ladder, are measured as multiples of salary. But as full-time, permanent employment gives way to short-term, zero-hour and freelance contracts, many are finding them tricky to get, or renegotiate, even for those on average or above-average earnings.

What we're seeing is a blurring of lines where status, or class, is no longer dependent on absolute wealth, earnings, qualifications or upbringing. It's more to do with hubris, self-entitlement and access to other people's money. Play a good game of office politics, and you'll get to a position where you can afford to live in East Dulwich. Fail to play, or fail to get a job in which office politics is possible, and you'll be impersonally forced to move out.

East Dulwich is, according to some sources, still far from a ghetto of sharp-elbowed braggarts. But there's something oddly symbolic about the painted Madonna of the favelas who, from above a glittery new temple of self-indulgence, leers at the less-celebrated utility of the Wash 'n' Dry.

There is, of course, nothing to be done. Credit is everything and, until the next inevitable crash, East Dulwich will continue to shift to a "middle-class" ghetto of estate agents and destination shops (such as the pantomime butcher and the inexplicable gelaterie) with an increasing dearth of police stations, post offices, greengrocers and the suchlike. It may not be an accurate label, but we know what it means. And, though it's scant consolation for the struggling, Marx was never fond of meritocracies. In that sense, at least, it's a change for the better.

[tfwsoll]

'One of the problems I've seen with the drone view of life, is that they are often scared of their own shadows, so anyone or anything that is a bit noisy, smelly, entertaining or unusual to them is something to fear and not welcome in their drone-land. They bleat and wail until the authorities come to their aid and cleanse the neighbourhood of these terrifying individuals/pubs/shops etc.'

I would say that this is a factor of life in any neighbourhood. I work in a number of less gentrified pockets of London and get the same 'bleats and wails' from the traditional working class population to 'come to their aid and cleanse the neighbourhood'. I also get regular comments about the influx of 'outsiders', usually meaning Eastern Europeans so maybe everyone is just becoming less tolerant?

[DulwichFox]

Class whatever it is, is something you are born into..

If you suddenly come into money. I.E. A lottery win. That does change your social status or class.

You will not be mixing with the Stars or Royalty.

I am by no means wealthy, but I am fortunate enough to be in a position to afford on occasion

to eat in some of the finest restaurants. I'm not talking about East Dulwich. I mean Fine Dining.

However, that environment does not suit my nature. I simply would not feel comfortable.

There is a problem with the Social Class Ladder.

You see, what they have done is remove some of the rungs. This makes it impossible to climb.

If you suddenly find yourself in money, you will not be finding yourself surrounded by new rich friends.

You may well find you have lost some dear old friends.

I know people who work hard just to survive, or even struggle to survive .

They are good people who if they came into money, would more than likely share it with others.

For some people, having someone special in their lives is a greater wealth than any amount of money.

You can have pots of money and nothing or no one to spend it on.

DulwichFox

[Otta]

Good post from Penguin, but

"My impression of ED is that it is now more ethnically mixed than 25 years ago (I have no statistics to support this)"

I personally don't agree with this, I felt (again, no stats just my own recollection) that I used to see far more black faces around the place when I was a kid / teenager.

[PokerTime]

According to the 2011 census, 58% of ED residents are White British. 15% are African or Caribbean.

http://www.ukcensusdata.com/east-dulwich-e05000539#sthash.WJd6FGuS.dpbs

So seems pretty ethnically mixed to me.

[Louisa]

PT if you take together the White Irish and White Other stats the total White population is 71%. Well above the average for London taken as an average, and unusually high for inner London in the 21st century. More to the point, if you compare with 2001 statistics, the total white population for ED was 64%.

Louisa.

[PokerTime]

So it's about black and white for you is it?

It might suprise you to learn Louisa that the Irish have a culture of their own as do most of Europe. Those people do not identify with being of white British culture or origin.

For someone as obsessed with british class as you, I'm suprised you can't grasp this concept.

Edited to also correct you. The 2001 census shows 63.28% for white British. So East Dulwich has become more diverse over the past decade, not less.

[Louisa]

PT you pick and choose your figures to suit your argument. As Otta points out, it feels as though there are less diverse faces of differing colours over the 10 years and the census statistics prove this fact. The 'ethnic' minority population (Non-white European) has fallen in the 10 years between censuses in the ED area as a whole. So although the area remains 'ethnically mixed' in your words, it is less so than it was a decade ago. That goes against the grain with pretty much everywhere else in London besides equally gentrified communities. So don't use the "it's about black and white for you is it?" argument, it's what the statistics show us, their findings not mine.

Louisa.

[PokerTime]

I don't pick and choose anything. I look at the figures as they are. What I don;t do is group white people as though they are all the same against anyone with a darker skin, as though they are all the same too. That's what you are arguing we should do.

The census is clear. ED has 58% white British populus now, compared to 63% ten years before. It also sits alongside wards with higher than average comparable ethnic proportions anyway, less than a mile apart, and last time I looked ED was not an island. ED is so small an area that disussions on diversity are pretty much irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.