Dulwich Park middle class?

[LS092509]

Louisa Wrote:

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> Rocca and Crown & Greyhound are not chains and

> both serve food.

Hmmm... Rocca is owned by the same company that own Franco Manca- a company co founded by the former CEO of pizza express.

[Burbage]

It's so sad to see people arguing over this. I don't, personally, think there's any conflict at all. Even though we are talking about two different places.

The discussion began centred on Dulwich Park. Geographically speaking, that's a patch of land whose lower slopes slump to a halt in Dulwich Village, a ghetto of oleaginous profiteers, specifically and appropriately at the Chapel of God's Gift, the sanctimonious memorial to the tortured bears and south-bank prostitutes who gave such selfless service in the cause of founding what is now the Dulwich Estate.

The upper reaches of the Park border Dulwich Proper, a mixed neighbourhood of mostly working folk who live in council estates, shoddy private blocks and the meaner variety of Victorian terrace.

The Park therefore counts as middle class because it is in the middle. At the one end are people in mail-order tweed, who call their dogs Tarquin and point out the voles to their children. At the other end are those who call their dogs Geoff, play rounders and know a rat when they see one. It's effectively the demilitarized zone of the class war, and should keep everybody happy.

Up to a point, at least. There is the small matter of the flood defences, which could potentially change that sunny outlook. For, when you think about it, it's merely a wheeze to force the poor, through water bills and council tax, to disproportionatly subsidise the not-very-poor-at-all. For it is only the latter who'll benefit, seeing their insurance premiums reduced, and being saved from the indignity of wading in their own, doubtlessly aromatic, sewage. But, so far, nobody has noticed, so it'll probably be fine.

East Dulwich is somewhere else. It does not border the Park but nestles, a little further to the north, in the groin of Denmark Hill and at the upper end of the disappointingly mismonikered Goose Green. Although once inhabited by blow-ins, attracted by a pantomime butcher and quantities of Cath Kidston, that transient generation has now left, leaving their aspirational successors to live in the TV-inspired ruins of their fixer-uppity, overpriced dreams. The great lino-rush of recent years is, sadly or otherwise, now over and the money it generated is now being squandered on unsustainable smallholdings up and down the A40 by people who pretend to be writers, leaving those who lost out in the recession-hit game of musical houses still here, but without the moolah to support so much as a deli.

Effectively, this means that East Dulwich is becoming, paradoxically, a bourgeois community of the unwillingly-working class. Which should keep everybody happy.

[Silvia78]

I think Louisa is Rod Liddle.

[nxjen]

"In the Sunday Times today Rod Liddle describes Dulwich Park as 'the second most middle class place on Earth'"

No question at all about Dulwich Park being middle class, but "the second most middle class place on Earth"? Nah, way behind Hampstead, Primrose Hill, Highgate, Richmond, parts of Wimbledon, other parts of London too many to list, parts of Norfolk, Gloucestershire, etc etc. France. Sorry Dulwich Park you just don't cut it for second place.

[KidKruger]

It's just a park isn't it ?

What's the big hang up with who else goes there and their 'status'.

If you get what you want from the park then cool, if not, don't go there.

Is this how you measure yourself ?!

[Penguin68]

Having been the OP and offered no opinion of my own ('Discuss' is what I asked for, and got) I should perhaps note that Dulwich Park, being relatively small, is peculiarly concentrated middle class - the other areas mentioned above by nxjen certainly offer uber middle class spots but, I would argue, are not so concentratedly middle class.

[miga]

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[nxjen]

Nice analysis Miga, I take your point. Coulsdon South therefore must take the no. 1 position.

[miga]

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[Louisa]

The above points made so eloquently by Burbabe and nxjen are broadly correct. The pre-2008 explosion in house prices saw the wide eyed home owning working classes willing and able to cash in on the terraced they'd lived in since day one and swop it for something larger in the bordering boroughs of Kent and Essex. Who can blame them? This coincided with the blow-ins from wealthier parts of town looking for first time buy bargains double the size of the existing place they had been renting. I personally would argue the case that the recession did damage ED beyond repair and stalled the process of gentrification leaving the area in flux. Never quite making it to it's expected Clapham-like potential. This had left the middle class blow-ins in a bit of a quandary, they want the area to be more middle-class and are hoping this supposed economic recovery will allow that to happen or at least make them some more money with yet another property bubble. The park has always been more of a reflection of ED than the village IMO. Gentrified ED has allowed the park to take on a whole new persona which many outsiders would now immediately link to the village, which of course would be exactly what the aspirational blow-ins would want. A true villager would now be more comfortable visiting the park than they would have done 15 years ago. I tend to see less of a representation of working class folk in the park these days, but maybe that's just a reflection of changing demographics.

Louisa.

[Huggers]

Hampstead, Highgate and Primrose Hill are upper middle class, or whatever you call millionaires nowadays.

[Louisa]

Dulwich Village is middle class. East Dulwich is a mix of lower middle class and working class.

Louisa.

[miga]

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[jimbo1964]

All this talk of class is outdated anyway. There's no social class system. Only those with money and those without.

[Rolo Tomasi]

miga Wrote:

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> Louisa - how long before someone stops being a

> "blow-in" and starts being a local?

Yes, how long?

[peleparso]

At least the pigeons don't wear flying helmets and chalk up bacon sandwiches on their wings.

[Louisa]

To miga and Rolo Tomasi - this is a tough question. A blow-in tends to be the type who moves around different areas based on cultural and economic reasons. Therefore, they're less likely to stick around for more than 5/10 years maximum, they'll also be a lot more sensitive to house prices and crime stats. I think if you can move to within a mile of lordship lane and remain there for a decade at least you'll be considered a local. Of course this is becoming harder as house prices force people into further afield locations.

Louisa.

[miga]

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[Zebedee Tring]

I bet that lots of people living in roads like Melbourne Grove, not to mention Woodwarde Road, would go mental if you had the affrontery to describe them as LOWER middle class. Heaven forfend!

[El Pibe]

can we get exact definitons of these strata please louisa?

[Louisa]

Zeb, I think that Woodwarde road, although lovely, is a bit borderline and it still retains the se22 postcode. It's sort of almost the village but not quite, so it's not offensive to describe the road as a haven for the 'nearly but not quite' brigade. Melbourne Grove is actually quite hilarious. Close to the station, on top of grove vale and LL, it typifies modern blow-in lower middle class ED. Skanky old Victorian street cleaned up and made to look good, with properties selling close to or just over the million mark.

Louisa.

[paulipedia]

East Dulwich was a middle class area before it was a working class area

[nxjen]

When East Dulwich was developed at the end of the 19th century "The houses were aimed at socially mobile members of the lower middle classes - typically London clerks - and the new population was largely one of young families."

From History of East Dulwich at http://www.ideal-homes.org.uk/southwark/assets/histories/east-dulwich

[Louisa]

El Pibe, I'm glad you asked. Well if we look at a 'typical blow-in' we are kind of looking at a number of different strands here. Firstly, we have the aspirational Uni educated from a wealthy-ish background outside of the M25 (usually small town south-east), little bit trendy, reads the guardian, likes it a little edgy. They'll come here because they literally can't afford where they want to be. They may have even rented in a posh postcode previously. Then we have the wealthy (or they thought were) family who decided they could sell their 2 bed flat in Putney and get a 5 bed house over this end and start a family- and have enough change to stick a jacuzzi in the garden shed. I think these are the two prominent strands, but they're not set in stone by any means.

Louisa.

[miga]

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