travellers

[dollywitch]

Was mentioned in another thread but does anyone know what the legality is of people just parking their camper vans/transit vans and then living there?

When I go through the path around the football ground car park there seems to be 3 or 4 vans all parked up having breakfast and getting kids ready for school this morning! I'm sure there was only 1 or 2 vans before but they seem to be increasing, so word must be out that east dulwich is the place to be!

[titch juicy]

Are they harming you or anyone else?

If not, why not let them be?

[speedbird]

I agree dollywitch! I don't live on the estate next to Sainsburys, but visit a friend there on my way back from shopping. It is growing in size and looking much more like a travellers site. I don't know what happens here, but would say find out the options from the council.

In answer to Titch Juicy's question.... I found it quite intimidating and wouldn't now take that route as I normally do. Though I'm guessing you don't live there or use that route?

[Penguin68]

Are they harming you or anyone else?

The issue may be one of eventual numbers - a couple (of vans) probably harm no one, twenty or thirty might (as, I assume, there is no infrastructure, such as water or sewage facilities to support them). Unfortunately with travelling folk, Romani, Irish Travellers or others it tends frequently to come down to an 'all or nothing' position. An authority which offers an inch of welcome (outside formal site arrangements for travellers) tends to end up with a mile of vehicles. Is there an event (fair etc.) which is bringing them here for a particular purpose?

Are they on private or public land, with or without permission? That also makes some difference?

I would be loathe to see people chased away, as long as numbers are not over-stretching resources, but the densities of 'camping' occupation you can healthily achieve in land which is suitably supplied with water and sewage outlets are quite different from those areas without.

Where public land is involved, authorities frequently take pre-emptive action in fear that numbers will dramatically increase, which reduces the option of small site occupation at a reasonable level - it's a vicious circle really which tends to concentrate travellers (therebye frequently exacerbating the situation) rather than letting them stop for a time in many places in small(er) numbers.

Edited to say that it's not wholly uncommon for travellers to undertake e.g. building works and, as part of the arrangement, to park up on site (or on a site owned by their employer) whilst they are working. Could this be the case here?

[Jeremy]

titch juicy Wrote:

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> Are they harming you or anyone else?

In an ideal world I'd like to think that it if people wanted to live in a caravan, then that's their own business, as long as they leave private property when asked and don't cause a nuisance. But it's not quite that simple.

Plus the rest of us contribute to our local community by paying council tax, you could argue that not paying their way is a kind of indirect "harm".

[henryb]

Council Tax is linked to an address not a person. So if you don't have an address you don't have to pay. Paying it doesn't give you any more rights or entitlements than anyone else. Same goes for much you pay of any other tax. Otherwise people who pay more income tax could claim they contrubute more to society so they deserve xzy.

[Jeremy]

Yeah it's linked to an address, but helps to pay for services which benefit all of us. So clearly you could argue that it's unfair. Travelling is a lifestyle choice, after all.

[henryb]

Yes but all taxes do. Some people pay more, some less - it is not related to how much you use local services. The Poll Tax was very unpopular I seem to remember.

[KidKruger]

But to have to look so hard to find any 'harm' being done means there's actually no harm being done, doesn't it' ?

It's just prejudice this, isn't it ?

If there's instances of fly-tipping, using the surrounds as a toilet, leaking oil everywhere or hassling the locals then maybe raise it as an issue. Otherwise MYOB.

[Jeremy]

Ideally taxes should be based on ability to pay, not whether you live in a house or caravan... but the rules are the rules so it's a moot point really, so I guess I'm sort of in agreement with you, henry.

[henryb]

Yes a local income tax would be better. Although there would some problems with that as well - rich councils getting more money than poorer ones.

[spider69]

dollywitch Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Was mentioned in another thread but does anyone

> know what the legality is of people just parking

> their camper vans/transit vans and then living

> there?

>

> When I go through the path around the football

> ground car park there seems to be 3 or 4 vans all

> parked up having breakfast and getting kids ready

> for school this morning! I'm sure there was only 1

> or 2 vans before but they seem to be increasing,

> so word must be out that east dulwich is the place

> to be!

Don't travellers usually turn up just before a Bank Holiday when the Council is just about to shut down.

If it's not a legal site move them on before they become entrenched and the Council starts running around in circles.

IF you feel strongly they can rock up wherever they please why not help residents who have to put up with this by offering the travellers your garden or drive.

Not a good idea, thought not.

[charlesfare]

speedbird Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

>

> In answer to Titch Juicy's question.... I found it

> quite intimidating and wouldn't now take that

> route as I normally do.

People getting their kids ready for school is terrifying to be fair.

[uncleglen]

Yes- it is not good when they send their kids to your school for a couple of weeks and then clear off. The ones I have experienced are put in classes according to their age and are below the reading age and deficient in Maths and become disruptive since they/their parents do not care about their education- and they have a detrimental effect on the other students- but equal opps and all that bleeding heart liberal bs....

[Local tramp]

Oh no not the nimby brigade again. How dare these people live in a box on wheels in a shabby car park whilst not paying any taxes and sending their kids to a local school for a bit of an education. Let's organise a east dulwich hate mob and chase them away with pitch forks so east dulwich's pretentious plastic snobs feel better about themselves again

[charlesfare]

These kinds of threads are a real eye opener

[LadyDeliah]

On the tax issue, the poor (which might or not include the alleged travellers) pay loads more tax on the goods they buy as a proportion of their income than the wealthy.

[Sue]

uncleglen Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Yes- it is not good when they send their kids to

> your school for a couple of weeks and then clear

> off. The ones I have experienced are put in

> classes according to their age and are below the

> reading age and deficient in Maths and become

> disruptive since they/their parents do not care

> about their education- and they have a detrimental

> effect on the other students- but equal opps and

> all that bleeding heart liberal bs....

xxxxxx

Oh, how very charming.

I'd rather be a "bleeding heart liberal", as you put it, than be like you :(

[unlurked]

I suspect that if these so called travellers turned up in or around thomas more hall thus preventing a cineworld cinema then the posters would be in uproar and baying for blood. S'funny.

[the man with a van]

Lady d get a life .stop banging on about the cyclists .They pay no road tax .no insurance .no fuel .no congestion charge .start taxing the green cycling brigade 100 pounds per day for holding people up and ban cycling from 12.01 am till 11.59 PM

[Horsebox]

the man with a van Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Lady d get a life .stop banging on about the

> cyclists .They pay no road tax .no insurance .no

> fuel .no congestion charge .start taxing the green

> cycling brigade 100 pounds per day for holding

> people up and ban cycling from 12.01 am till 11.59

> PM

You really earn your title of 'forum idiot' with every post you make.

[Vik]

These 'travellers' have actually been there for years. They were in the Dulwich Hamlet car park, then when it was cleared have moved off the main bit of land. We and many, many other families and school children walk past them everyday. I never hear or see them. aside from the campervan and occasional van, you wouldn't know they were there. They have been responsible for planting flowers around the site and keeping it clear and tidy.

To say they are intimidating is up there with the stupidest comments I have seen on here.

[LadyDeliah]

The man with a van does more for the cycling cause than I ever could!

[david_carnell]

If you read the latest edition of Peckham Peculiar, there is a permanant traveller camp (I've always thought this a little oxymoronic) behind the police station and Lidl in Peckham. Could be overspill from an alerady crowded site.

[adonirum]

@ david_carnell You are quite right, "permanent traveller camp" is a paradox.

Most district/borough councils are now obliged by law to provide "permanent residence sites" alongside "transitory sites" and typically twice as many "pitches" for the permanent sites than the transitory ones. This is compulsory on councils, with the cost being match funded 50-50 from a govt grant and the local council tax.