Rolf Noooooooooooooo!

[adonirum]

Still not sure I follow, SJ. Randombloke stated ..."vile crime..." I totally agree and then states ..."best justice system in the world"....with which I don't agree.

As you ask "when was it the best then" and "When was it good", am I right in assuning that you have the belief that it never ever was the best in the world?

[StraferJack]

You are better at asking questions than answering them aren't you?

I would say it's never been perfect, but generally speaking it's always been better than most and I would say that is true today. I certainly don't believe, as you do, that it is worse than some (as still unspecified) time in the past

My fellow Irishman have often been at the wrong end of it going back many years

Any chance you could answer my questions now?

[Jeremy]

I feel strangely sorry for him. Despite the fact that he undoubtedly deserves to be locked up for the disgusting things he's done. I feel an odd, involuntary pang of sympathy at this pathetic, dejected character walking into court, shamed in front of the world and knowing that his life is effectively over.

[randombloke]

OK, so this has now morphed into a discussion of the relative merits of legal systems. The statement "best justice system in the world" is based on the fact that more people come to the UK to use our legal system rather than any other. It is certainly not perfect, Guildford 4 etc. But on balance I would rather be in court here than anywhere else. Had I thought it would have raised such a debate I would have chosen my words with greater care.

The main point of my statement was that it is easy to forget the true victims of this. No doubt we will discover more cover ups etc.

I used to have business dealings with a major hospital in the north of England that had a department that specialised in diagnosing child abuse cases. I was told confidentially that there was a massive and organised paedophile ring based in the county that included "many household names, 'the great and the good', politicians, entertainers, business people, even the most revered names in the country and abroad at the very highest echelons of society". "So many vested interests to ensure that it never gets out, and the poor victims will never have a voice."

I have no evidence to support that statement and often unsavoury truths are hidden behind the statement "we investigated and found no evidence of wrongdoing", code for 'They are as guilty as sin, we know it, you know it, but we aren't going to do anything about it.' To quote Francis Urquhart: "You may very well think that, I couldn't possibly comment".

This is a truly emotive subject, but should never lose sight of the fact that childhood is the most vulnerable time of our lives, it shapes us as human beings. If adults pervert that for their own gratification, then they should be punished.

[the-e-dealer]

If you consider the theory that abusers usually were abused themselves as kids then some understanding is appropriate but as they say 'you do the crime you do the time'

and as Monty Python Point out - they often did talk sense!

"My Lord Society is to blame" - "we'll be prosecuting him too!"

I think it was the Bishop Sketch.

[Otta]

Jeremy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I feel strangely sorry for him. Despite the fact

> that he undoubtedly deserves to be locked up for

> the disgusting things he's done. I feel an odd,

> involuntary pang of sympathy at this pathetic,

> dejected character walking into court, shamed in

> front of the world and knowing that his life is

> effectively over.

Me too. Even if he gets a lenient sentence he's still going to have to live out his years "underground".

Press and MPs are now talking about him like he's on the same level as Saville or Gary Glitter, and I'm sorry but he's not.

And that is not because he's lovable Rolf, and it is not to say he hasn't done very wrong.

Glitter is a full on nasty kiddy fiddler, and Saville got to go to his grave with his secrets (even if he was a scary weirdo to a lot of kids like me).

[LadyDeliah]

I very much doubt these guys were abused. Their prey were vulnerable kids in care who they picked out in peadophile shopping sprees. I doubt they were ever vulnerable in the same way.

[Dopamine1979]

I kind of see your point Otta.

[Jeremy]

I agree with LD, it doesn't seem likely that this crop of celeb pervs were abused. Seems more like a mixture of opportunity, power, and a self-centred mindset.

[LadyDeliah]

Although, some of them may have shagged and whipped in public school I guess. They were pretty evil places full of rapists and peodophiles, which may go some way to explaining why so many of the elite are so sick.

[PokerTime]

Many adults have things they'd like to do if they could, but don't because they know they are wrong. Being sexually abused as a child does not excuse repeat behaviour as an adult. Most abused children do not turn into peadophiles. These men (and it is mostly men) know that what they are doing is wrong, but do it anyway.

The BBC made a documentary some years ago, following the probation services in dealing with convicted peadophiles. Some of the sessions with doctors and probation officers were chilling, in that these men were completely obsessed with the pursuit of victims, but in complete denial of the harm they did. There's a complete moral disconnect going on.

I think it's right to only prosecute on the grounds of strong evidence, but have no sympathy whatsoever for those caught and convicted.

[Jah Lush]

I do find the notion very strange that people abused as a child go on to being abusers themselves. Gary Glitter is an example of that. He was a care home kid. He never knew his father and was brought up by his mother until he was ten and she couldn't cope anymore and he was taken into care where he was abused by the very people who should have been caring for him. I can sympathise with the fact that he was abused but then going on to be an abuser himself is where my sympathy ends. He's still a very nasty paedo. So let's not forget that.

[the-e-dealer]

Why do you find the notion strange its widely known that many abusers were abused.

[Jah Lush]

By the very fact that they go on to do it others. You'd think they'd know better and wouldn't want to harm a child after being mistreated themselves.

[the-e-dealer]

Ah I see, Its about feeling normal. The more they themselves do it, it becomes normal so it wasnt bad when it was done to them. Weird I know but its some sort of Psychological Syndrome.

[Jeremy]

That strange little moustache that goes up into his nose freaks me out a bit

[Otta]

Or they felt so powerless that they want to hold the power when they're big enough to do it to someone else. Either way it's clearly a messed up mind.

But someone like Glitter who would go out to countries where he could basically buy little girls is a world away from someone like Harris who in the majority of cases was an opportunistic groper.

I think that's the main difference. The worst offences he commited were with his daughter's friend who was there for him to build up to over a prolonged period. Outside of that he'd cop a feel when he thought he could. But he never (as far as I know) went out hunting for girls to have sex with like Glitter.

Still wrong before anyone suggests I'm defending his actions, but in my book not the same level as Glitter or Saville.

[Otta]

Jailed for 5 years and 9 months.

[Otta]

"He now faces the possibility of losing much of his ?11m fortune after some victims contacted a law firm specialising in civil compensation claims over sexual abuse."

And it seems that firm have already been doing some work with their clients.

Victim

"As a young girl I had aspirations to have a career, settle down and have a family. However, as a direct result of his actions, this has never materialised"

[Jeremy]

To be honest I don't know the details of what Rolf did. I don't really want to know. But according to the article you quoted earlier, Otta, the groping was the tip of the iceberg.

[Otta]

Yes it was, but I think (could have got it wrong) that it was groping with most of them and much more with the daughter's friend.

But I certainly won't be rushing to read any court transcript!

[adonirum]

SJ wrote "You are better at asking questions than answering them aren't you"

It's old habits, I'm afraid, SJ. Even retired I suppose years of detective work can't help but come to the fore.

[PokerTime]

the-e-dealer Wrote:

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> Why do you find the notion strange its widely

> known that many abusers were abused.

There has to be some care in making these kinds of parallels. Most abused children do not grow up to be abusers themselves. Nor are all peadophiles the victim of childhood abuse.

There is however a theory that in dealing with trauma, the brain in some people rewires itself to turn trauma (pain) into fantasy (pleasure). That would be one explanation why something traumatic to a child, or indeed an adult, then becomes in turn a sought out act of pleasure. BUT, the vast majority of abused children, whilst suffering psychological damage do not develop in this way. It is also notable that that the vast majority of sexual abusers are male. Women who abuse children tend to use violence and neglect. But women have often looked the other way while husbands, brothers etc have sexually abused their own children. It's impossible to know why any of these people behave in this way. All that can be said is that there are a whole range of adults who do not see children in the way most of us do.

Jailing people like Glitter, gives some protection to society. Jailing someone like Rolf, after the act, sends a clear message that no-one is above the law. Both of these men have had entire lifetimes to seek help or find some way to live another way. They chose not to. Compare that to the lifetime of shame felt by their victims.

[Jeremy]

PokerTime Wrote:

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> Jailing someone like Rolf, after the

> act, sends a clear message that no-one is above

> the law.

Yeah, I was thinking that if it's possible for any good to come out of this whole yewtree thing, it's that it might serve as a warning to the next generation that they can't get away with this sort of behaviour.

[LadyDeliah]

That's not necessarily true PT. There seem to be more female sexual abusers than is commonly imagined, but underage boys often see it as a positive thing so don't report it.

There has been a lot with small kids in day care and other situations where women are carers. There seems to be quite a lot of mixed research, but this is quite a good analysis of this taboo area of the debate.

http://www.ipt-forensics.com/library/female.htm