Congratualtions to the State of Israel.

[mockney piers]

We'll have to agree to disagree now DPF.

I'll continue to read many history and play close attention to unfolding events, and apply trained historical analysis accordingly.

You can carry on googling a couple of pronouncements and basing your conclusions on them.

Either way it makes no difference, we can hardly influence events can we.

[Dulwich_ Park_ Fairy]

'll continue to read many history and play close attention to unfolding events, and apply trained historical analysis accordingly.

You can carry on googling a couple of pronouncements and basing your conclusions on them.

You're going to be really embarrassed by that post in an hour or so :)

[Keef]

You are absolutely insane if you think groups like Hamas intend to peacefully co-exist with Israel.

Well Hamas used to say they wanted the total destruction of Israel, and now they say they want a Palistinian state with Jerusalem as the capital, so even there there is a bit of a step down, so you never know.

I know it's not simple, but statements like yours are so defeatest, surely there is always hope...

'll continue to read many history and play close attention to unfolding events, and apply trained historical analysis accordingly.

You can carry on googling a couple of pronouncements and basing your conclusions on them.

You're going to be really embarrassed by that post in an hour or so

Have to say Piers that that statement sounds really rather patronising, and if you do end up with egg on your face, it won't be entirely undeserved...

I am well intrigued as to what will happen in an hour or so now... Fight fight fight! ;-)

[mockney piers]

Fine a little harsh and patronising; I apologise.

I wan't the one googling a couple of pronouncements, nor have I once repeated spoon-fed propoganda from either side. Strikes me DPF has fallen for it from both.

[Dulwich_ Park_ Fairy]

I wan't the one googling a couple of pronouncements, nor have I once repeated spoon-fed propoganda from either side. Strikes me DPF has fallen for it from both.

He's doing it again!

[mockney piers]

sorry but you're like a broken record, over and over "we can't talk to them"/"they want nothing short of Israel's destruction".

If that's your starting and ending position (one which is basic AIPAC propoganda) then movement will be 0

Bush/Thatcher/Olmert/sharon//netenyahu/DPF "We can't/won't negotiate with terrorists" - achievement = nothing

Major/Blair/Obama/Rabin - We will talk to our ira/iran/plo - achievement = progress (and in the case of rabin a bullet from his own for the privelege, nice)

[Dulwich_ Park_ Fairy]

sorry but you're like a broken record, over and over "we can't talk to them"/"they want nothing short of Israel's destruction".

And, despite your claims to genius and impartiality you come across as being disturbingly anti-Israeli, and, by resurrecting the "blood libel" myth, quite anti-semitic.

You fail to address;

If Hamas are being so reasonable in there attempts at reconciliation with Israel why have they repeatedly refused international community demands to recognize the right of Israel to exist? Also, why does it refuse to modify its original charter and abide by the previous commitments of the Palestinian Authority?

What UN resolutions has Israel has broken through its "illegal" occupation of Palestinian territories.

The only thing I have tried to google is your rather sinister claim that Israeli midwives committed genocide and have drawn a complete blank. Could you tell me what period this occurred in so I can narrow my search?

[mockney piers]

I wondered how long before the old 'anti-semitic' accusation would come out - shame on you!!.

I never said genocide, I said use of intimidation and murder to enact a movement of population, the events are all recorded, I'll give you some village names when I have the time.

Israel has broken international law with the deefacto annexation of the occupied territory that the settlements represent.

Hamas have repeatedly created unilateral ceasefires, many have held for many months in the face of Israeli provocation, "targeted assassination" being nothing but extrajudicial murder.

Hamas have often offered recognition, but one side has to move.

Israel hold all the cards and must move. Did you see the IRA disarming BEFORE negotiations? I think not. Israel are demanding complete disarmament as a precursory condition to negoatiation.

Budge a bit Israel, you never know.

[Keef]

So, because he is disagreeing with you he's anti Israel and anti semitic? That's quite a pair of accusations!

[RosieH]

Dulwich_ Park_ Fairy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> And, despite your claims to genius and

> impartiality you come across as being disturbingly

> anti-Israeli, and, by resurrecting the "blood

> libel" myth, quite anti-semitic.

Ok, I know this is a really contentious issue, and I've avoided posting on this thread because I don't think it can possibly hope to go anywhere useful, but I think levelling the accusation of anti-semitism at MP is out of order.

I hate that get out of jail free card. Anyone who finds fault with Israel's actions is anti-semitic?

Or are you taking MP's midwife comment to mean literal midwives slaughtering babies?

[Dulwich_ Park_ Fairy]

So, because he is disagreeing with you he's anti Israel and anti semitic?

To be fair, I think I took the word midwife a bit too literally hence the "blood libel" thing. I therefore officially withdraw the anti-semitic accusation. He is though, like most of the left in this country appallingly anti-Israeli.

[Dulwich_ Park_ Fairy]

Or are you taking MP's midwife comment to mean literal midwives slaughtering babies?

See above post, to be fair I am trying to work as well.

[RosieH]

Fair enough - I don't think MP comes across as anti-Israeli, but I recognise that it's a really heated subject - which is why I think I will back away now because from experience I've found that this debate will go round and round for days and weeks with both sides just getting further entrenched.

[SeanMacGabhann]

Sweeping generalisations about the left in Britainonly occur because anyone who expresses condemnation of Israeli military action is lumped in with "anti Israeli". I don't know anyone on the left, myself included who would begrudge Israel anything if they showed any willingness to engage brain to resolve a situation that very obviously needs sorting

Why it feels like only yesterday that we on the left were all accused of being anti-American - but it turns out we were only anti-Bush/Cheney et al

I mean, who knew huh??

I haven't seen anyone come out and support Hamas on here. A couple of people might have expressed SOME understanding of why small groups of people MIGHT resort to such tactics. Which is a very different thing

[Dulwich_ Park_ Fairy]

Luckily I have a big spade.

[matthew123]

If someone is anti-semitic, they are by defintion both anti-Hebrew and anti-Arab

[Huguenot]

WTF? DPF are you for real? You won't reclaim any moral high ground by deliberately flinging around noxious accusations in order to prevent open debate or disclsoure of historical fact.

Criticism of poorly justified military action must be national prejudice? Discussion of Israel's domestically and internationally recognised kill-ratio is a blood libel? Mockney is anti-semitic?

Piersy has consistently said that the solution lies in compromise, and that compromise doesn't involve Israel attempting to win a protracted battle that entails the starvation, parching, disenfranchisement and destruction of millions of people. This is common sense. Piersy also highlights that the pre-1967 borders have received general acceptance.

Instead your kind of rabble-rousing language is the very root of the problem. This kind of cr@p sends young kids to murder and be murdered in your name. It perpetuates a struggle generated by old men of limited imagination who cannot stop the fight because it has become their very identity.

[Dulwich_ Park_ Fairy]

Criticism of poorly justified military action must be national prejudice? Discussion of Israel's domestically and internationally recognised kill-ratio is a blood libel? Mockney is anti-semitic?

There was I thinking that I had clarified that I misunderstood what MP said and retracted the statement.

Piersy has consistently said that the solution lies in compromise, and that compromise doesn't involve Israel attempting to win a protracted battle that entails the starvation, parching, disenfranchisement and destruction of millions of people. This is common sense. Piersy also highlights that the pre-1967 borders have received general acceptance.

But that is my argument, that this "general acceptance" is a complete fallacy. As of 15:30 today only Egypt out of all the protagonists has done this and Israel reached a settlement with them. Can someone please give me a list of states and political organisations which have recognised the existence of Israel in its pre-1967 borders?

Article 242 called for Israel to withdraw from the territories it occupied in 1967 and its neighbours to accept its existence and make peace. They refused to do this so Israel kept the territories until such time that its neighbours complied. Why should Israel have given back the territories it won without any concessions from the defeated parties?

More specifically with Hamas, despite MPs denial of this, they still uphold its original charter which rejects any possibility of co-existing with Israel. Its not going to change its position on this so where can dialogue begin?

Instead your kind of rabble-rousing language is the very root of the problem. This kind of cr@p sends young kids to murder and be murdered in your name. It perpetuates a struggle generated by old men of limited imagination who cannot stop the fight because it has become their very identity.

You mean Hamas and Hezbollah?

[Huguenot]

I mean Hamas, Hezbollah, Israel and various interested parties. I, alongside most of the correspondents on this thread, am prepared to recognise that there are several protagonists in this conflict carrying reponsibility for its perpetuation.

There are very few who persistently deny this, and are starting to appear almost clinically deluded.

It reminds me of spokespeople for the IRA who couldn't start a justification for the massacre of innocents without the words "The British government...". After a while they just sound insane.

[LegalEagle-ish]

As a matter of interest, DPF what is your nationality?

[mockney piers]

Sean, I've just remembered, it was My Morning Jacket.

If you listen to their last album Z it sounds just like the Fleet Foxes.

[Dulwich_ Park_ Fairy]

As a matter of interest, DPF what is your nationality?

I guess I'm British but I would consider myself more a Celt.

[SeanMacGabhann]

possibly wrong thread MP?

morrisey fan, DPF??

ok - that's enough about music here - back to the debate

[Dulwich_ Park_ Fairy]

Irish Blood English Heart

Nah, I ain't no boggy;-)

[mockney piers]

Well blow me down wiv a fevver, I'm not alone; someone else believes dailogue and compromise will bring about peace, prosperity and security.

"But [Obama] suggested that Israel has hard choices to make and that his administration would press harder for it to do so. "

We cannot tell either the Israelis or the Palestinians what's best for them. They're going to have to make some decisions. But I do believe that the moment is ripe for both sides to realise that the path that they are on is one that is not going to result in prosperity and security for their people," he said.

Mr Obama added: "There are Israelis who recognise that it is important to achieve peace. They will be willing to make sacrifices if the time is appropriate and if there is serious partnership on the other side