Congratualtions to the State of Israel.

[Tony.London Suburbs]

Tony Blair sorted out the 300-year-old Irish local difficulty all on his ownsome so now in his current role I have EVERY confidence that this problem will soon be solved by Tony,

"In Tony We Trust"...

[LegalEagle-ish]

Scary.

[Michael Palaeologus]

"it was not long ago that Israel's own terrorist's were blowing up the brits in the king Davids Hotel..... " Eh? 60 years ago, when they were fighting to create an independent state for the Jews, post the Holocaust, when they needed one. Hamas is fighting for the destruction of Israel.

The PLO have at least accepted its existance, albeit tacitly and are willing to find a peaceful solution; this doesnt suit the Iranians and so they fund Hamas and so it goes.

[Dulwich_ Park_ Fairy]

Could LegalEagle or AllForNun suggest an appropriate course of action for Israel to take when it's civillians are attacked by genocidal Islamofascists?

[Tony.London Suburbs]

Dulwich_ Park_ Fairy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Could LegalEagle or AllForNun suggest an

> appropriate course of action for Israel to take

> when it's civillians are attacked by genocidal

> Islamofascists?

Yeah! Do what we should have done in 1938 when Adolf invaded Poland,sat round a had a chat about it.

Its Good To Talk:(

[mockney piers]

There's so much misinformationand misunderstanding flying round I actually don't know where to begin, and frankly shouldn't be bothered.

MP you're lovely but you may want to read a bit more about the birth of Israel, it has very little to do with the holocaust at all. And Hamas is fighting for an honorable settlement and have placed pre 67 borders and recognition of Israel on the table a number of times. Israel want surrender as a precondition to negotiations; that wouldn't have gone far with the IRA, why does anyone think Hamas will (hmm, perhaps because the PLO did once they were corrupt enough to stop caring) and so it will continmue again.

TLS, why the arbitrary 300, why not 900, or 50? Some credit goes to Tony but he really just gave it that final nudge after a couple of stalls from a lot of others' hard work.

He is pushing an entirely Israeli/US agenda in his current role and will achieve nothing.

DFP, hilarious. Hamas kill 13 people and they're genocidal. And islamofascism is a nonsense made-up word beloved of Bush, I rest my case.

[snorky]

mockney piers Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> There's so much misinformationand misunderstanding

> flying round I actually don't know where to begin,

> and frankly shouldn't be bothered.

>

> MP you're lovely but you may want to read a bit

> more about the birth of Israel, it has very little

> to do with the holocaust at all. And Hamas is

> fighting for an honorable settlement and have

> placed pre 67 borders and recognition of Israel on

> the table a number of times. Israel want surrender

> as a precondition to negotiations; that wouldn't

> have gone far with the IRA, why does anyone think

> Hamas will (hmm, perhaps because the PLO did once

> they were corrupt enough to stop caring) and so it

> will continmue again.

>

> TLS, why the arbitrary 300, why not 900, or 50?

> Some credit goes to Tony but he really just gave

> it that final nudge after a couple of stalls from

> a lot of others' hard work.

> He is pushing an entirely Israeli/US agenda in his

> current role and will achieve nothing.

>

> DFP, hilarious. Hamas kill 13 people and they're

> genocidal. And islamofascism is a nonsense made-up

> word beloved of Bush, I rest my case.

I could have responsed in this manner, but I dont have the patience or the eloquence today

[Michael Palaeologus]

I have read a great deal about the birth of Israel - the holocaust was one of may elements, but an element nonetheless.

Anyway, cant be arsed anymore.

[Peckhamgatecrasher]

Blame my Grandpa, MP, he was in the Palestinian Police.

[Dulwich_ Park_ Fairy]

There's so much misinformationand misunderstanding flying round I actually don't know where to begin, and frankly shouldn't be bothered.

Yeah, and a very big chunk of it comes from you....as per usual

MP you're lovely but you may want to read a bit more about the birth of Israel, it has very little to do with the holocaust at all.

True, it began about 70yrs earlier, mainly as a result of the pogroms in Russia. Still as a result of mass persecution and genocide.

And Hamas is fighting for an honorable settlement and have placed pre 67 borders and recognition of Israel on the table a number of times. Israel want surrender as a precondition to negotiations; that wouldn't have gone far with the IRA, why does anyone think Hamas will (hmm, perhaps because the PLO did once they were corrupt enough to stop caring) and so it will continmue again.

Now you are entering the realms of fantasy. Hamas has two aims. In the short-term (as you mentioned) it wants to remove Israel from the occupied territories which Israel has always said it would do once its neighbours recognise its sovereignity. In the longer-term it wishes to eliminate Israel and set up an Islamic State throughout the whole of Palestine, Israel understandably isn't too keen on this. As an aside both the EU and the US consider Hamas to be a terrorist organisation rather than a political party so they might not be as cuddly as you are making out.

DFP, hilarious. Hamas kill 13 people and they're genocidal. And islamofascism is a word beloved of Bush, I rest my case.

Oh, I see what you are doing...very clever, you are suggesting that anyone who is sympathetic to Israel is a right-wing, war mongering neo-con. Well in that case you win smarty pants. When I said genocidal I meant by intent and a quick google of comments made by Hamas leaders will back this up, they will never be interested in co-existing with Israel or jews in general. You must be gutted that they have yet to gain access to the means to put this intent into practise.

[snorky]

Arsey people have beef with Better armed arsey people over a miserable piece of land that seems to have some history for various mickey mouse religions

[Dulwich_ Park_ Fairy]

Arsey people have beef with Better armed arsey people over a miserable piece of land that seems to have some history for various mickey mouse religions

That sums it up pretty nicely.

[Keef]

Arsey people have beef with Better armed arsey people over a miserable piece of land that seems to have some history for various mickey mouse religions

I blame Egypt ;-)

[mockney piers]

Yeah yeah, anyone who criticises Israel wants to set up a global caliphate and everyone who supports Israel is a neocon fascist.

Strikes me you're doing more to support that daftness than I, when all I've ever done is suggest that coming to terms with your enemies in seemeingly intractable conflicts will achieve more than shelling un compunds, sending in the tanks and dropping cluster bombs in built up civilian areas and killing thousands of innocent people (yeah thousands, Lebanon wasn't that long ago).

No doubt you'd have spat at anti-vietnam protestors would you. It being obvious that you couldn't talk to godless communists who wanted nothing less than the destruction of capatalism, and that North Vietnam had to be bombed to the negotiating table.

It amazes me how people continue to proffer the lies of spouted by those in power who have vested interest in maintaing a state of war rather than compromising for peace.

"cuddly" !!!

Ha ha, twonk.

[Dulwich_ Park_ Fairy]

Strikes me you're doing more to support that daftness than I, when all I've ever done is suggest that coming to terms with your enemies in seemeingly intractable conflicts will achieve more than shelling un compunds, sending in the tanks and dropping cluster bombs in built up civilian areas and killing thousands of innocent people (yeah thousands, Lebanon wasn't that long ago).

No you didn't, you painted a very biased picture which promoted the "virtues" of Hamas without ever addressing the fact that they are a deeply unpleasant terrorist organisation which wants to destroy its neighbour, a legitimate country mandated by the UN.

No doubt you'd have spat at anti-vietnam protestors would you. It being obvious that you couldn't talk to godless communists who wanted nothing less than the destruction of capatalism, and that North Vietnam had to be bombed to the negotiating table.

Actually MP my politics are fairly left-wing but based around issues such as; equality, trade unionism, womens rights, social liberalism etc, all things that your buddies at Hamas would remove in a heartbeat. Thats one of the main reasons that I'll often support Israel.

[mockney piers]

I'm glad those are you politics, perhaps we can find some middle ground. You're not helping by describing Hamas as my "buddies" however.

Many, many of my family suffered and died at the hands of real fascists in Spain, and I've seen how in those who survived the trauma of watching the bombs rain down, the tanks roll in and the utter humiliation of powerlessness and living in fear has affected them forever.

For that I will always symapthise with the Palestinians against the policies of Israel, particularly in the last decade. I know many Israelis and like them very much as we share our Mediterranean temperament and zest for life, but as usual the actions of governments rarely really reflect the real feelings of the people.

Hama are not my buddies, but they are the men that need to be talked to. Nobody liked taling to the IRA, but we did and now there is peace.

Few moments made my heart surge with pride about what people are capable of more than watching Paisley and McGuiness shake hands and work together.

Words like terrorist and islamofascist prevent progress, they do not solve problems.

[Tony.London Suburbs]

Well Said.

[Dulwich_ Park_ Fairy]

Well Said.

I thank you.

[mockney piers]

Your name's Said? Now I'm really confused ;-)

[Keef]

but they are the men that need to be talked to.

Exactly!!! They have a following and sypaphisers, to stick your fingers in your ears and go "la la la la la la la", whilst pretending that they have nothing to do with it, and can be ignored, is just stupid!

[mockney piers]

Thank you Keef. Finally someone speaks wise words rather than quote some nonsense they heard.

[Dulwich_ Park_ Fairy]

Hama are not my buddies, but they are the men that need to be talked to. Nobody liked taling to the IRA, but we did and now there is peace.

Few moments made me hurt surge with pride about what people are capable of more than watching Paisley and McGuiness shake hands and work together.

I honestly can't see where Hamas and Israel are going to find any common ground. The aims of Hamas are very different to the IRA as is their willingness to sacrifice their own civilians for what are basically PR reasons.

[Keef]

I honestly can't see where Hamas and Israel are going to find any common ground.

Perhaps they won't, but unless both sides are willing to sit down and try, they will both go on killing each other for ever.

Hamas (or some of them) are obviously a bit fanatical, but at the end of the day they believe in their fight, and if Israel go on refusing to talk, and just attack them, Hamas will surely develop more and more of a siege mentality, they won't just decide to give up one day.

It's a shame this thread started with such toilet, as it's obviously a subject / current affair well worth talking about. I just feel there is far too much outraged press getting everyone wound up with righteousness!

Reminds me of the aftermath of the baby P thing, which has reminded me...

*goes off to look for old thread*

[Michael Palaeologus]

I blame the Christians. Playing Jews off against Muslims. Wait until they kill each other and then trot in to take over again. Much more successfull strategy than a crusade or a pogrom.

Or is it the Chinese? or both?

[mockney piers]

I don't actually think anyone with actual power is doing this MP, but some of the loons in the religious right actually think that's exactly what's going on, and would certainly have encouraged the last administration's policies.