East Dulwich Icons

[Keef]

Just for the record, I like the roundabout, and would be gutted to see it go.

[Guest]

Keef

Please, please help me understand this affection for roundabouts. Perhaps my experience in Sydenham will help you pin it down.

The good people of Sydenham were likewise attached to the roundabout at Cobbs Corner (where Kirkdale meets Sydenham Road), and theirs was even less attractive than yours - just a nasty concrete mound surrounded by guardrail. After much discussion it turned out they wanted to keep the roundabout because

*It was a distinctive 'feature' (their word, not mine)

*It had 'always been there'

Then someone dug out a photo of Cobbs Corner in the sixties - no roundabout. I used the photo to show how the space taken up by the roundabout could be 'moved' to the adjoining footways, creating space for a new feature that you could get close to - a fountain, a statue, a landmark tree, whatever.

We then walked round the roundabout to see just how awful roundabouts are for pedestrians - even nimble, agile ones. For many older people, for younger children, and anyone with a mental or physical impairment, they can be inconvenient, very confusing and downright dangerous. Pedestrians and roundabouts don't mix.

Once they started thinking about what they could gain, rather than 'losing the roundabout', people started to be a bit more enthusiastic.

Back to the Goose Green roundabout. It's been there a lot longer than the Sydenham one. Is this important? It's green and flowery, which is a lot better than concrete. But because it's raised, it blocks views across the junction if you're coming from Dog Kennel Hill, and at peak times the grass and flowers are largely hidden behind stationary traffic.

Remove it and you'd have a clear view across the junction, looking at the folks outside the EDT looking back at you - this gives a strong signal that you've arrived somewhere to spend some time, rather than a place to sit in traffic.

The space that at present is isolated in the middle of a sea of tarmac and traffic gets added to existing footways. This could be used for grass and flowers you can touch and smell, and that act as a barrier between you and the traffic. Wider pavements outside the shops to the west of the roundabout would give them breathing space - they might attract something better than yet more estate agents. Wider footways by Goose Green itself might permit a strong feature gateway onto Goose Green - it seems ridiculous to me that you can't get onto the Green from this corner. Plus you could have safer crossings for everyone, and possibly lots of other improvements to Lordship Lane, funded by Transport for London. And the buses would go faster.

Now, you might still hold some affection for the roundabout, but doesn't the above seem potentially like a very good deal?

As I've said in another thread ("Better walking conditions on Lordship Lane"), I understand removing the roundabout was suggested sometime in the 1990's and there was uproar. I'm hoping that a more pedestrian-friendly approach, and changing public priorities (as well as TfLs much more pro-walking attitude) might mean removal now is at least a possibility.

If you (or anyone) can make it to the Saturday walkabout (11am, Feb 3rd, starting at the United Reformed Church Hall on East Dulwich Grove, opposite Dulwich Hospital), I'll be delighted to discuss this all on site - this really is the best way to get a feel for how things might be.

Paul

[Keef]

I know Cobbs Corner, and it's fugly! However, The roundabout in Dulwich is nice, it has goose green next to it, and the EDT on the corner... I don't know, it just looks nice.

Don't want to sound selfish, but I don't drive, and really couldn't care a less if people feel the roundabout slows their journey by a couple of minutes.

[Guest]

Paul Leave the roundabout alone. The traffic flows well and I have never had any problems crossing the road.

"it blocks views across the junction" - sorry but I have never experienced that problem

"The space that at present is isolated in the middle of a sea of tarmac" mmm that will be the road - are you gettin grid of that too?

"Wider pavements outside the shops to the west of the roundabout would give them breathing space - pavements here are not exactly four abreast?

- they might attract something better than yet more estate agents" so its the roundabout thats to blame for them? Strange cos where there are lights, at the junction at Iceland, there are two estate agents there

"buses go faster" - if you really want to improve our bus service do something about the Walworth Road, Camberwell New road and the Camberwell Junction - that really would speed them up

Dont mean to be rude but WE LIKE THE ROUNDABOUT ! I think a lot of people see it as the "gateway" to East Dulwich. Thats ounds really poncy for a little roundabout but its how I think of it

[Huguenot]

I like the roundabout too, and living almost next door I'm not sure I've ever seen anyone struggling to cross on the zebras.

We don't need to imagine being a schoolkid as they're all there and doing reasonably well. Unlike at the junction between ED road and Peckham Rye where I believe a memorial is still in place for the last victim. Traffic lights make people do crazy things.

As for the requirement for a touchy-feely local monument, erm.. no. stop it, that's silly and embarassing ;-) It wouldn't be traily-fingered, it would be full of goo and crisp packets. Utopia's all very well, but then people have to live there.

I'm not a traffic management guru, but it seems that on the whole the roundabout seems to keep traffic moving, and a set of lights would result in a build up of large queues chuntering out smoke as they waited for the go signal. Bu**er that. If it ain't broke...

None of that's because I'm a driver, cars are the work of the devil and when necessity calls I use http://www.streetcar.co.uk/.

Best improvement for LL would be 'no parking' regs 18 hours a day, but I know that plonker local traders will squeal "ruining my trade" just so they can park their own four wheels outside the front of the shop all day [yes, you know who you are ;-)] It wouldn't work in isolation, we'd need to uprate parking at Sainsbury - semi underground not overground - and liberate the walk down to LL with a zebra crossing at Melbourne Grove.

To make that workable we'd probably need resident permit only parking adjacent to LL which might slow local business somewhat. To appease that we'd need to pedestrianise North Cross Road for a weekend market and promote it up and down the East Croydon Line to push up weekend sales.

Then there might be lots of visiting pretty girls for me to look at...

It's easy, this urban planning lark...:))

[Huguenot]

Actually, come to think of it,with the parking ban you could then widen the footpath the length of LL.... crazy!

[all_star]

Paul - do you have some before and after pictures of the Cobbs Corner roundabout that you could post to help people to visualise some of the benefits you are suggesting?

[Guest]

All_star

Yes, I have pictures - can I insert them into a message?

[all_star]

Yes - you might need to host them on an image server type website first - try imageshack. You also need to be a registered user to do this - then there is a simple button to click.

[Huguenot]

No worries Paul, post them to flickr or another web page, then go to that page, right click on the picture and click on 'properties'. Underneath 'image properties' is 'location'. Highlight this with your mouse and 'copy' it.

Return to your half finished EDF post, and move the text cursor to the place in your message where you want the picture to appear, and click on the mountain/sun button in the message menu (alongside bold. underline, italics, smiley etc.) Paste the location of the picture into the window that appears at the point you want the picture to appear, and hey presto!

[Guest]

The suggestion of replacing the roundabout with a signalled junction is NOT about improving car movements - it's about making the junction safer for pedestrians. Of course some of you will find the current arrangements satisfactory, but your council is committed to improving the sustainable, independent mobility of as many Southwark residents as possible. And while you may find crossing at the roundabout easy and safe, many less able people do not.

The reason buses get through a signalled junction quicker than a roundabout is because of something called SCOOT. If a bus is full, and running late, traffic lights trip in their favour, to help them catch up. Basically, the green light for them stays on a fraction longer, holding up traffic from another direction for a fraction longer. This system is already in place and working successfully in many parts of London. Coupled with the clear improvements in inclusive pedestrian safety that a signalled junction offers, this is why TfL would consider funding a scheme that included this change. To be honest I don't really care about the bus movements (or the cars, for that matter), but I'm interested in a) what is good for inclusive mobility, especially walking, and b) what is achievable.

The sums available within Southwark Council to improve Lordship Lane are very modest indeed. The sums potentially released by this change are very significant.

BUT, if local people do not want the suggested change, then it is certainly not my place to push it. In Sydenham I was able to suggest the change, only because locals were at least tentatively persuaded by the argument. But if I can't persuade you - or those who come and look at the situation first-hand on the Saturday walkabout = then I'd be daft to recommend Southwark wastes it's and Tfl's time pursuing it. I've spoken to some of Southwark's traffic team already about this, and they were very sceptical that I would get anything other than strong opposition. They've been dead right - so far. I've spoken to local councillors, and one has already been strongly opposed to losing the roundabout - although she has agreed to give me the chance to change her mind with a site visit.

I don't want anyone to think the roundabout is somehow the only issue - but it is important, and it does offer the opportunity to realise some significant improvements on Lordship Lane.

Please don't think I'm trying to take your roundabout away. East Dulwich is YOUR place, not mine.

If the roundabout is to stay, then surely the crossings around it can be improved. Any suggestions?

If after careful consideration you really want to keep your roundabout, then you should probably keep it. But you must accept that I'll be placing some weight on the response of people who give me the opportunity to look with them at the alternatives first-hand, as well as the opinions expressed here. If you want to come along and give me a hard time, then do so - that's what public consultation's for.

[Huguenot]

Sure Paul, I understand your POV on mobility and safety, it's just that in the 7 years I've been here I've never seen any evidence of the harassed pedestrians you're describing. Who is it telling you otherwise?

I can however assure you that kids are dying and getting seriously injured at a junction 400 yards away and that really does deserve some attention.

I'm a little disappointed with your attitude to cars and buses as these people are part of the community too, and ugly queues of traffic stinking up LL as they wait for the lights would be a blight on LL and a shocking experience for pedestrians. Clearly yours is a single issue action group, but as a community we've got to be a little more holistic.

If those plonkers at TfL will only offer investment for streets if they can change roundabouts into traffic lights then we shouldn't be endorsing that by co-operating!

On another note I find traffic lights ugly and impersonal so it would be great if you could post some of those pics to see more up to date examples!

However, I'm sure I'm not representative of the local community, but I merely hope to help inform the debate!

[paul_holdsworth]

Here's the original sixties picture - pavements are more or less where they are now.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/118/369060114_1ab8cb40ba_m.jpg

Here's two suggested alternatives. NOTE! I'm not a traffic engineer, or a CAD engineer (how did you guess?) so these illustrations are NOT engineering drawings. It's obvious in the T junction picture, for example, that a bus coming up Kirkdale would not get round the corner onto Sydenham Road (i.e. towards the camera). The photos just show how space could become active footway, instead of dead traffic island or roundabout.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/123/369060118_899b219350_m.jpg

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/130/369060122_65fba3c9ff_m.jpg

Does this help?

[Guest]

I'd be sorry to lose the romance of the roundabout/zebra combo.

A car stops for you.. beckoning you across with a friendly gesture.. over you go, flashing them a smile and occasionally mouthing the words 'thank you'. It's a beautiful thing.

[paul_holdsworth]

Huguenot

Of course I meant my professional interest was not in buses and traffic - I used to commute by bus from Forest Hill to Vauxhall, along Lordship Lane, and I'm personally a big fan of public transport.

Bad conditions for pedestrians deter walking, and this can mean no casualty stats on roads that are hazardous for walkers. Then try getting traffic calming on these roads, and some engineers say "There's no need, no-one's getting killed or seriously injured here". I know I wouldn't let my child near the Goose Green roundabout without adult supervision.

TfL won't ONLY fund schemes that replace roundabouts with traffic lights, but a scheme that is good for pedestrians AND buses is especially attractive to them.

I'll try to post pictures of neat, smart, modern crossings - now I know how!

[paul_holdsworth]

Bob, I love zebras for just that reason too. Zebras are brilliant outside secondary schools, for example, because teenagers are the sector of the population most intolerant of waiting for a green man. But zebras at roundabouts are tricky, because you have to analyse the intentions and speed of traffic coming from a number of different directions at once; that traffic has right of way over other traffic (because it's already on the roundabout); and it then has to give way to pedestrians on zebras - confusing for everyone. That's why in the past engineers set zebras well back from the crossing itself, with lots of guardrail to try to force pedestrians away from where they want to cross - just like they have done at Cobbs Corner!

And what will happen when we're both too old to see further than the nose our faces? No friendly smiles and waves then, just stress, uncertainty, confusion and possible danger.

[Guest]

I do see what you're saying Paul, and I'm certainly no expert on traffic / pedestrian management.

But I can't help feeling that whilst Goose Green might be the project with all the glamour (as much as there could be for re-developing a roundabout at any rate), there is (as Huguenot and others elsewhere in this forum have mentioned) a more deserving case for petitioning etc at the other end of the green, where it's just plain dangerous for both motorists and pedestrians virtually every hour of the day.

[Guest]

Paul

All these harassed stressed OAPS you are going on about - do you mean the ones that have 10 seconds to get across the junction beore the green man goes off and the red man comes off? Stop trying to persude us that getting rid of the roundabout is the solution. IT AINT BROKEN! This is just another example of the public sector saying "Hey we have the budget now we have to spend it somewhere otherwise we'll lose it next year!"

You think this doesnt happen? What about the lovely green fencing on Goose green! It looks crap but it cost us tens of thousands of pounds!

[Quaywe]

Until I read Paul's statements I would have agreed that the roundabout should stay. It's a great "Welcome to East Dulwich" icon and kind of segments LL from the not as nice Grove Vale.

I would say though that if this is the only reason we want to keep it then there are other way's of achieving the "Welcome to Dulwich" effect and maybe getting all the good things that Paul suggests. How about a big pretty floral arch above the entrance to LL stating "Welcome to East Dulwich Town Centre"? It won't get covered in rubbish, it's a pretty icon, it safeguards the entrance to ED and probably makes a better statement than the roundabout.

I've got to be honest, I can't see that this roundabout is terribly efficient. I'm a pedestrian mostly and often see traffic backed up down LL right up to the roundabout. Especially on Saturday's. It's difficult to cross at the roundabout and the backed up traffic down LL makes it difficult to cross anywhere on LL. Cars frequently sit stationary on the road around it spewing out fumes maybe more so than they would if they were waiting for the lights to turn green and blocking buses from getting through. When I DO drive I avoid the roundabout and LL like the plague as I know it's such a bottleneck.

The roundabout itself is pretty, and is an icon. But I think we can still have an icon (the arch or similar), and the better walking and traffic conditions that Paul states. We all know ED could use improved public transport options, so why not start here by streamlining things a little for ALL and letting go of something that really doesn't offer much.

You're living in the past man!

[Ko]

I personally like the roundabout and I do associate it with arriving at LL and the hub of ED.

HOWEVER, I am prepared to listen to alternatives and see some mock ups, and see what COULD be achieved if a substantial amount of money could be obtained from TfL. As Paul says, Southwark council only have enough money at present to pay for a single crossing. If one of the alternatives Paul suggests actually looks good and can get funding from TfL, then residents can have the chance to say yes or no - but at least lets give him a chance to put his ideas across before we tell him to leave the roundabout alone. Lets be open-minded. If the sugeestions aren't what residents want, then we can say no.

I think a lot of the attachment to the roundabout is that it does signal you're back in ED and its a nice 'welcome to ED' feeling seeing the familiar roundabout/greenery of goose green/the corner of the EDT. I think that if a similar 'welcome to ED' feeling could be created then that could mean people feeling less sad about the roundabout going. I absolutely love Quaywe's idea of a floral arch and something actually saying 'welcome to ED'. At the moment, the pictures posted above make it look like it could be any traffic junction in London, so what we need are people's ideas of what could be added to give that unique 'welcome to ED' feeling - like a floral arch.

I've always thought that having zebra crossings around the roundabout is mad and downright dangerous - it just seems potty. Also the buses and traffic do move incredibly slowly when there is a lot of traffic. It doesn't bother me so much as I walk the 15 minutes from my house to the station, but I have to say that a lot of people do catch the bus all the way into town or at least up to Denmark Hill (to get the blackfriars train).

I think that whatever suggestions are made, they would have to be visually attractive and have some sort of uniqueness, or otherwise I would vote for the roundabout to stay, but I'm willing to listen to the ideas and I like some of what I've heard so far.

[paul_holdsworth]

I couldn't have wished for two fairer responses than these last two from Quaywe and Ko - thank you. Living Streets are only making suggestions, and it is great that people are prepared to listen to me at all.

So I'm going to take this opportunity to stop posting - but if you want to continue, I'll continue reading.

I'd like to thank the Forum very much for such a useful site, and the nice people of East Dulwich who contributed to this thread. I can assure you that views posted here will help me produce a more accurate, balanced report.

If the Forum's moderator could email me the contents of this thread (and the one called "Improving walking conditions on Lordship Lane") as a Word document - without the posters' names or email addresses, of course, I'd be even more grateful.

If you want to know how this project proceeds, and can't make either of the events this week, then contact your councillor and ask to be kept up-to-date with the Community Street Audit.

Thanks again

Paul Holdsworth

Living Streets

[snorky]

The roundabout slows traffic down and gives the habitual and troglodytic driver time and space to reconsider the decision to use a car when inded his or her legs would suffice. So a few cars are backed up on LL ? And that is detrimental to whom ? Not the pedestrians nor the shopkeepers.

we can only benfit from further restrictions on car use on the area

Ban all cars from the lane and allow only buses during daylight hours

endforce daytime parking restrictions with the zeal of a born again christian

[Muttley]

One Icon of East Dulwich (and environs) 2006/7, is the fleet of red transit vans with the hand-painted ?15 per hour sign that are dotted around the area. One seems to live on Lordship Lane, one on Goose Green, one near Camberwell Green...in fact it's possible to do a journey into town and see four or five of them, and the first time this happens, you do a double take and think "hey, that van is stalking me". Has anyone ever actually seen one of them move?