What Labour really thinks of the white working class

[Otta]

Louisa Wrote:

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> However, this does not justify a politician sneering at the

> very people who elect them and pay their salary.

No, absolutely not, and of course she had to step down.

But I just feel cynical about most politicians these days, and think the vast majority of them from all parties would look down their nose at a lot of people.

They just wouldn't be stupid enough to put it on social media.

[BrandNewGuy]

adonirum Wrote:

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> BNG, on what, precisely,do you consider yourselves

> middle-class?

> Residency in E.D.?

> Highly educated?

> I do not ask in a contradictory manner, I am

> genuinely interested as I posed the question

> previously in another thread some while ago.

I consider myself middle class because I'm not working class :-) My family history going back at least three generations is broadly clerical and professional ? and I'm senior managerial. And as with being 'highly educated', I don't wear the badge with either pride or shame, but just state the fact.

[BrandNewGuy]

red devil Wrote:

> seems groups like the EDL have done the same with

> the English flag.

I'd argue the opposite ? that the BNP's 'ownership' of the Cross of St George has slipped, and very welcome that is too. I don't think I'm being overly optimistic in hoping that the flag can simply be a symbol of one of the groups to which you are attached.

It's interesting that in Germany for the World Cup in 2006, most Germans were nervous about hanging up the German flag ? whereas their victory this year by contrast saw much flag-waving. I'm happy with that.

[PokerTime]

uncleglen Wrote:

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> (On a par with Brown's 'bigoted woman' comment

> methinks) My brother is a very qualified and

> experienced white van man, West Ham supporter and

> in the last 10 years has struggled to find work

> because he cannot afford to work for ?20 a day (he

> has a mortgage and 2 children).... I am sure he

> will vote UKIP

It's illegal to pay anyone just ?20 for a days work and he's managed to hold down a mortgage so he must be earning enough somewhere? Many people don't even have that.

What is probably more likley the case is that your brother is only just making ends meet and has no job security. It's the stress of that and only just making ends meet that are probably the source of his disillusionment. He's not the only one feeling like that. Millions are in the same place of insecurity. And there's a reason why interest rates have been kept as low as they are. The Government and the Bank of England know how fragile the economy is, and the diasater coming when those interest rates have to go up.

But if he thinks UKIP are the answer and that Europe is the reason times are hard for him, then he is mistaken. We just don't have enough jobs in our economy and the jobs we do have don't pay enough in general to supply the taxes needed to support our public services, pensions and the needs of the growing proportion of over 65s. In addition, wealth in the economy has shifted from wages to capital assets and investments - that's why those doing best are getting richer faster, and those in work are seeing their wages fall in comparison in real terms. Leaving Europe won't change any of that. Closing the borders won't change any of that either. Every western country is in the same boat. Declining economies and higher public service costs to keep it all going.

Ultimately the neo-classical free market capitalist model will have to reform. It came in to fix the stagnation of the 70s, but it's quite clear it no longer delivers a fair, stable or balanced economy.

[numbers]

Louisa Wrote:

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> This is exactly why after 5 nearly five years of

> an unpopular Conservative lead coalition Labour

> are nowhere in the national polls and in Scotland

> face being almost wiped out. The guardian reading

> middle class urban socialist is as far removed

> from traditional Labour voters as the toff Tories.

I would go as far as saying that 'working-class Tories' would likely identify with the 'traditional Labour voters' more so than any champagne socialist Guardian-reading middle class types ever would.

During the independence referendum, it was only the likes of Brian Wilson and Alasdair Darling who did remotely anything to reinforce support for Labour in Scotland. Milibean was completely and utterly useless and ineffectual.

[numbers]

PokerTime Wrote:

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Tony Benn didn't exactly slum it at

> any point in his life. It's not class that matters

> but what you stand for.

Indeed. Tony Benn and his ?5 million legacy (none of which went to the Labour party, eh workers?).

It's all too easy to 'stand for something' when you are stinking rich though, isn't it*? I'd hazard a guess and say its a damn sight easier than when you are impoverished and have very little choice.

* e.g. just look at Billy Bragg.

[aquarius moon]

So who would you vote for if you are:

Broke, earning minimum wage, living in council accommodation, have no savings, no pension & no prospects?

Labour? UKIP?

Suicide?!

[uncleglen]

PT-When property developers were hiring people to refurbish property where my brother lives he asked one of his regulars (before the influx) if there was any work going and the man replied 'why should I employ you when I can get someone to do it for ?20 a day?' You are na?ve if you think that there is no black economy in the construction industry or people working for much less than they should be....

[PokerTime]

It's a good question. There is no-one in our political system representing those people, because no party, including UKIP wants to do anything to change our free market economic model.

Council accomodation is at least the most secure of tenure but government want to change that too. And more than a third of the labour force (currently in work) have no pension provision whatsoever, so that problem goes beyond the poorest, and is a financial disaster looming for the future. No political party wants to talk about it.

We have to get wages up, and we have to get more jobs in the economy. We are having to give thousands of pounds in tax credits and Housing Benefit to people in full time work because the big companies they work for don't pay enough. They are all at it, from Tescos to Wallmart. No-one frankly has any balls to take these corporations on.

It is very bleak indeed for those at the bottom.

[PokerTime]

Yes uncleglen, there is a black economy, but there always has been. Your brother isn't homeless. He's managed to keep the mortgage paid.

[aquarius moon]

Suicide then :(

[StraferJack]

Numbers

Has billy bragg always been quids in then? He made those early albums on the back of a silver spoon?

[JohnL]

Getting fed up with this - alright to put flags in your window YES, from a flagpole YES hanging from

the guttering over the front of the house NO, even if you are hardworking.

Have these politicians seen the house. Cameron, Milliband keep saying "in the window"

I'm tempted to stick a HUGE welsh flag across my balcony until Easter and we'll see how long before I get

requested to move it.

[numbers]

StraferJack Wrote:

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> Numbers

>

> Has billy bragg always been quids in then? He

> made those early albums on the back of a silver

> spoon?

just seen this. no, straferjack I don't suppose he has always been quids in, howeeeeeever, I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone of his age without socialist ideals back then. Would he have made such a vast fortune without the enterprising spirit of those early record companies I wonder ;)

[uncleglen]

FYI PT he didn't he is now renting an ex-council flat!

[Sephiroth]

Ah such innocent 2014 days

8 more years of Tory rule and we can see that Thornberry was the true monster

[Loutwo]

Sephiroth Wrote:

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> Ah such innocent 2014 days

>

> 8 more years of Tory rule and we can see that

> Thornberry was the true monster

Stop s### stirring.

Louisa.

[TheCat]

Sephiroth Wrote:

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> Ah such innocent 2014 days

>

> 8 more years of Tory rule and we can see that

> Thornberry was the true monster