Ched Evans situation

[legalbeagle]

"Complained" John? Are you referring to those brave enough to overcome their trauma of being raped and to deal with the hideous process of reporting it and having it prosecuted?

[Loz]

Robert Poste's Child Wrote:

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> Men can be victims as well as perpetrators. Last time I saw stats, reported rapes in England and

> Wales, victims were something like 85k women and 12k men.

It's worth noting that the rape law in the UK is written in such a way that, except in amazingly unlikely circumstances, only men can be charged with rape, as it is defined as 'penetration with a penis without consent'. If a woman had sex with a man or woman without their consent it would be classed as sexual assault.

[Robert Poste's Child]

Yes - I assume the increase in men reporting rape may be mainly men on men - in prison, for example.

[LadyDeliah]

I vaguely remember a woman was found guilty of rape, but she'd used a man to do it for her. Can't remember the case name though.

Rape can only be committed by penetration with a penis. There are all kinds of cases on how much needs to be penetrated and where.

Anyway, just want to add that, yes those (usually male) students who waited for someone to get drunk to shag them are rapists and I am glad that kind of thing is finally being recognised as rape as it was seen as acceptable behaviour for decades.

[LadyDeliah]

Just to clarify, drunk does not mean tipsy.

[Otta]

I'm assuming these blokes stay sober whilst waiting for the girls to get suitably pissed?

What a boring night, I'd rather get pissed and have some fun.

[LadyDeliah]

It's the predatory, taking advantage of a woman too drunk to give consent that we are talking about, not a drunken fumble.

[JohnL]

LadyDeliah Wrote:

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> It's the predatory, taking advantage of a woman

> too drunk to give consent that we are talking

> about, not a drunken fumble.

I think a lot of men used to do this - I might be wrong. They actually hold wine bottles to the girl (trying to get them to finish the bottle) - I've seen it.

'Hunting in Packs' in bars is a phrase being used.

[LadyDeliah]

Yes they did, so did loads of celebs and I'm glad they now face the possibility of criminal charges for their predation and lack of respect for womens' physical autonomy.

[Otta]

LadyDeliah Wrote:

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> It's the predatory, taking advantage of a woman

> too drunk to give consent that we are talking

> about, not a drunken fumble.

I get that, and I agree with you, but where is the line between tipsy / drunk drawn?

[LadyDeliah]

That's the hard fact the jury have to determine.

Given the fact she was staggering and clearly more than tipsy, I'm surprised Evans' co-D wasn't convicted too, but there you go, if there is even a possibility of doubt, the jury have to dismiss the charges, because they have to be certain to convict.

I think the reality is that most juries would err on the side of dismissal if there is any uncertainty, which is probably why rape convictions are so low, but that is how it should be.

Only if you are certain of guilt should you give a verdict of guilty, but hopefully, just raising awareness of this issue will make guys who might have been borderline cases previously, think twice about their actions, which can only be a good thing.

[JohnL]

Otta Wrote:

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> LadyDeliah Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > It's the predatory, taking advantage of a woman

> > too drunk to give consent that we are talking

> > about, not a drunken fumble.

>

>

> I get that, and I agree with you, but where is the

> line between tipsy / drunk drawn?

By the jury

But if you don't want to face a jury - need to err on the side of caution.

[sillywoman]

I haven't read the full thread, so apologies if I'm going over old ground. I think this is such a complex issue and is challenging on many fronts regarding social morality. My other half and I have hugely differing opinions on the situation that Ched Evans is in, & have a had a few 'heated' discussions about it.

My opinion is, that I can't comment on the rape charge. I wasn't there, I didn't see it, but the facts were laid bare for a jury who found him guilty. Now I don't have absolute respect for the legal system in this country (or any other). I'm old enough to realise that a lot of the time the law is an ass, and money talks, but for lack of anything better to go on I have to believe that those who saw the facts found him guilty, ergo - he is guilty.

As a convicted sex-offender I don't think that he should be able to go back to the job he did previously. In line with other professions whose practitioners are held up as role models for youth. The issue it raises for me is why doesn't the Football Association have a code of conduct for it's players? Surely it's something of a basic requirement. If a Doctor, nurse, teacher etc.etc. commits a crime it is considered to impact on their profession by reputation. If convicted of the crime they are considered to have brought their profession into disrepute and there is a strong likelihood that they will be struck off and unable to practice theta profession again. Football needs to wake up and realise that if we are going to pay these young men - our 'golden boys' - the ridiculously inflated salaries they command for their skill, then they will be expected to maintain certain standards of behaviour in order to continue to reap those rewards. Being a skilled player alone is not enough.

I now wouldn't ever buy my football-mad son a shirt with 'Evans' on the back.

[Blah Blah]

I think that hits all the right notes SW. He can't be held up as a role model anymore, and that's what happens when you are found guilty of a crime sometimes. It impacts on the rest of your life and livihood.

The case review that is ongoing at present is basically looking for a technicality to overturn his conviction. If he loses that review, will will then see him acknowledge he did wrong? I doubt it.

[Robert Poste's Child]

Have to confess an area of this I struggle with is contributory negligence. I believe it's not a permissible argument under Scottish law but I don't know about England and Wales. I don't see how we can talk honestly about rape without looking at that. Why can't we hold a perpetrator 100% responsible for their own actions (rape) while also looking at how the situation came about (drunk, separated from friends, going off with a stranger)? If I had teenage kids, that's what I'd be doing now.

[LadyDeliah]

RPC are you suggesting that the woman should be considered to have contributed to the rape if she, for instance went off with a stranger?

[LadyNorwood]

LadyDeliah Wrote:

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> RPC are you suggesting that the woman should be

> considered to have contributed to the rape if she,

> for instance went off with a stranger?

There has to be an element of culpability - I know because I've been there'.... I changed my mind, he didn't; I was in a situation once where he changed his mind and I didn't - I was furious and hit him....

[Robert Poste's Child]

No, LadyD - see my post where I said the perpetrator should remain 100% responsible for his own actions. To use an analogy, if I forget to lock the front door and someone walks in and helps themselves to my purse, that's still burglary.

It's more that as a society we seem unable to discuss sexual crimes without flipping into traditional sterotypes. I suppose what I'm getting at is that the debate seems to polarise views of the woman's part - and to be clear I'm only referring to this situation - into either helpless infantilised victim or, at the other extreme, tart who was asking for it. She was only 19 after all and I know I did things at that age (and later) which got me into difficult situations that I later regretted.

I'm probably not explaining very well, but it's that aspect I would want to explore with teenagers so no one can take advantage of them in a similar way.

[LadyDeliah]

So is a taxi driver culpable if he gets robbed? Or an estate agent when she gets raped or attacked? Or the jewellery shop with the attractive display of sparklers?

Isn't the person who sets out to commit the criminal action 100% responsible for their actions, regardless of what the victim did?

[Robert Poste's Child]

Did you not read either of my posts? I repeat, the perpetrator remains 100% responsible for their crime under the law - it shouldn't undermine that.

At the same time I personally would prefer to empower teenagers of both sexes to make choices that protect themselves. And before you generalize this into something I haven't said, I repeat that I'm talking about coverage of this particular situation.

[LadyNorwood]

Robert Poste's Child Wrote:

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> Did you not read either of my posts? I repeat, the

> perpetrator remains 100% responsible for their

> crime under the law - it shouldn't undermine that.

>

>

> At the same time I personally would prefer to

> empower teenagers of both sexes to make choices

> that protect themselves. And before you generalize

> this into something I haven't said, I repeat that

> I'm talking about coverage of this particular

> situation.

either of who?

[Robert Poste's Child]

LadyN, I was replying to a post from LadyD. You may need to start higher up!

[aquarius moon]

So if a woman is drunk, so drunk that she is having trouble standing up but is still able to speak, then consents to sex, then passes out afterwards, has no recollection the next day...............

Is the man guilty of rape?

[Jessie]

Yes.

[Otta]

LadyD you're trying to paint people as victim blamers here unfairly.

If someone commits a rape, they are responsible, no one has said otherwise.

But when my daughters are 19, I'd like to think they'll know that if they go back to a hotel room with a stranger they met in a kebab shop at 4am, it's unlikely the stranger is just going to be after a chat.