Trouble returns to Northern Ireland ? ? ?

[Mick Mac]

It seems that immediatley following yesterday's revelation that the British Army Special Forces were once again operating undercover in Northern Ireland, there has tonight been a gun attack on an army base by republicans in Antrim, Northern Ireland.

There will no doubt be chicken and egg theories but for me the use of army undercover operations in Northern Ireland without prior agreement with political parties was reckless in the extreme. It seems that the committees set up wherby army and police would be accountable to political parties were completely sidestepped in making this decision which could have significant repurcussions for peace in Northern Ireland. The decision was taken without consultation.

I have no doubt that this move would have needed Prime Ministerial agreement and Gordon Brown's pathetic premiership rolls on, after John Major and Tony Blair having done so much to build for the future in Northern Ireland.

The security forces have a history of illegal acts in Northern Ireland and these are well remembered. Unfortunatley yesterdays and tonights events may have significant consequences that with a bit of diplomacy may have been avoided.

BBC

[mockney piers]

Chicken and egg indeed.

Over a dozen car bombs have been defused over the last 5 months and splinter republicans seem determined to kill a policeman.

This isn't bringing back the SAS kill squads, it's a couple of advisors on intelligence gathering matters.

I was profoundly depressed listening to the radio yesterday to hear how bad things had got over the last year or so.

It reminds me of ETA, of who's activities you could understand under Franco, but when the Basque country is wealthy, successful, vibrant, has almost complete autonomy, it's own education, it's own taxes, the violence is really only the selfish, nihilist luxury of antediluvian cunts frankly.

Does the police chief's actions send the wrong message? Absolutely.

Is he trying to keep his people alive in the face of many attempts on their lives, seems like it to me.

[mockney piers]

I was reading the news this morning and was stunned & chilled to read

"[The Real IRA] branded the pizza deliverymen as British "collaborators""

And was reminded of Huguenot's post:

"It reminds me of spokespeople for the IRA who couldn't start a justification for the massacre of innocents without the words "The British government...". After a while they just sound insane."

True words indeed.

I mean they were pizza delivery boys for goodness sake, one of them was even Polish, just taking advantage of the freedom of movement of labour of the European Union to earn a living wage for him and his family. I mean how does that work?!

Does the RIRA suggest withdrawal from the EU post unification?!

[Marmora Man]

The security forces have a history of illegal acts in Northern Ireland and these are well remembered.

The IRA, UDF and their many evil spawnings also have a history of illegal acts - I agree the chicken and egg argument but as MP has pointed out there was a lot of potential terrorist acts developing before the deployment of the undercover security forces. Discussing the deployment of undercover operatives with more than the absolute minimum of people would be illogical and dangerous. I was surprised that it was even mentioned but this was, no doubt, part of an agreed dual political / security strategy.

[Mick Mac]

More bad news. A police man shot dead tonight.

[Reynard]

Such ferocity in their attack. My dad did a tour of south Armagh in 1980 and he always felt incredibly nervous not only on patrol but in their base as well.

On the otherhand, has anyone else noticed that Martin McGuiness looks like a clown with no make up?

[DaveR]

I'll be interested to see the longer term reactions of (i) the mainstream republican political class and (ii) the wider republican/catholic community. In particular, whether McGuiness et al will weigh up the political advantages and then make sure that the police 'discover' the perpetrators of these attacks.

[mockney piers]

Oh dear, now bombs being smuggled in from across the border.

Luckily the effective roadmap to peace has already been drawn elsewhere and we can learn from the successful policies of others facing the same need to defend themselves.

Firstly we build a big wall along the border, excising any nasty terrorist hotbeds like South Armagh, and hemming in those bits we don't like, Bogside, Craigavon etc (making sure to cut them off from their farmland, water etc). While we're at it we'll build more walls in the really pretty bits like Dingle and build nice little communities there, making sure we've

enough police and army around to make life intolerable for the locals, so we don't get pestered or have to feel guilty about it.

Next complete withdrawal from the aforementioned hotbeds apart from the bits we've built communities on, aren't we magnanimous, see, we've given them more land (apart from those bits we took), let's hope they're mature and responsible enough to do the right thing with it, not waste the opportunity.

We get Sinn Fein and Fianna Fail on the recognised terrorist organisations list, they are either tacitly supporting these people or not doing enough to stop them. And you can't talk to these people, look they just want violence, they're not interested in negotiation.

Next blockade this newly enlarged entity, shoot any planes attempting to land at Dublin airport, mine Rossalaire Harbour and bomb Knock runway. Only allow limited UN supplies through, though not antibiotics, you can make anthrax with that you know.

Any houses we hear of that might have a bomb factory in we drop a 1000lb bomb on, if civilians die it's because these cowards hide out amongst the population in order that we bomb them for propoganda coups, it's not our fault people die, we have the right to defend ourselves.

If as much as one soldier or policemen is killed or kidnapped we will level the infrastructure and manufacturing capability of the south (except maybe the Alienware factory in Athlone as I rather like their computers).

If it happens again we send in the tanks and just start shelling the hotbeds (Cork springs to mind), but don't worry we'll drop some leaflets saying that if you're not a terrorist we suggest you go as we're about to shell the *flipping heck* out of your neighbourhood using illegal white phosphorus shells and cluster bombs.

Rinse and repeat, they'll get the message eventually and then peace will reign supreme. Though no point lifting the blockade, as you can't be too careful.

Sorted.

[SeanMacGabhann]

What a plan Mockney - it couldn't fail surely! If only there was somewhere in the world where this was already in place we c... oh wait

[mockney piers]

Or we could stand more solidly by the democratic process and treat the violence as criminal acts, to be dealt with by the police rather than consider it a war against terror, I wish there was somewhere in the world that would react like that...oh wait.

[Shu.Kurimu.Sensei]

I've been at work in separate buildings where there were confirmed bombs 3, yep, 3 times in London, lucky for me, each time, thanks to the sterling efforts of the Police and Bomb Squad, and other services, my colleagues and I managed to get out without being turned into catfood.

The last thing we need is this kicking off into another bombing campaign over here.

The company I work for is Irish and the bosses are not happy about this one bit!

[mockney piers]

Happened to me twice Shu, second time i was in a bar having lunch, police came in and said that noone was to leave as there was a device outside. Looking out the windows we could see the whole area had been cordoned off.

Everyone's reaction? Massive cheer and the rest of the afternoon jollying it up at the bar. I got back to the office just before home time to find out one of my Kiwi colleagues had spent the whole afternoon hiding in the central stairwell.

Times like that really show the best side of the Brits I must say.

[Shu.Kurimu.Sensei]

Heh, on the flipside during those times, my Irish colleagues said they felt terrified of speaking to their friends on the bus/tube as they came close to being lynched a couple of times.

By the way, Piers, you're middle class, right? Got a question for you, there were these two decidedly upper class blokes in Sainsburys (slumming it I suppose) who seemed to be wearing suits of credit crunch proof threads sewn by Keynes [sic] himself who said XXX of XXX company is arranging a "Jolly" to New York, what on earth is that? An expense paid "research trip" or something?

Am out of touch with such expressions, been some time since I worked in Inner Temple and mixed with titled folk.

[mockney piers]

I think a jolly is just a good time, though there might be some implication that someone else is paying for it.

In my example the bar manager actually shouted a round to the bar!!!

[Moos]

I think a Jolly is definitely a business trip on which no business is actually going to be done.

As in

"I'm off to New York with work next week - have to have a couple of meetings but it's basically a jolly".

Don't really think it's a class thing, unless you are talking of the plutocracy.

[Shu.Kurimu.Sensei]

Thanks for clearing that up you two, back to the topic in question, any official plans to sort this mess out?

{also, good word that, moos... http://www.progressiveliving.org/plutocracy_defined.htm }

[Ted Max]

[Peckhamgatecrasher]

I used to work at the MOD and was regularly evacuated for bomb threats. We had to congregate in a nearby churchyard until someone (I worked for boffins - v. clever chaps) pointed out that all a terrorist had to do was trigger an evacuation and bomb the churchyard. All subsequent evacuations meant we had to leave the vicinity for three hours before we could return - what larks.

Back on topic, was I the only one to shed a tear last night at the show of solidarity in NI?

[Jimbob]

mockney piers Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Oh dear, now bombs being smuggled in from across

> the border.

>

> Luckily the effective roadmap to peace has already

> been drawn elsewhere and we can learn from the

> successful policies of others facing the same need

> to defend themselves.

>

> Firstly we build a big wall along the border,

> excising any nasty terrorist hotbeds like South

> Armagh, and hemming in those bits we don't like,

> Bogside, Craigavon etc (making sure to cut them

> off from their farmland, water etc). While we're

> at it we'll build more walls in the really pretty

> bits like Dingle and build nice little communities

> there, making sure we've

> enough police and army around to make life

> intolerable for the locals, so we don't get

> pestered or have to feel guilty about it.

>

> Next complete withdrawal from the aforementioned

> hotbeds apart from the bits we've built

> communities on, aren't we magnanimous, see, we've

> given them more land (apart from those bits we

> took), let's hope they're mature and responsible

> enough to do the right thing with it, not waste

> the opportunity.

>

> We get Sinn Fein and Fianna Fail on the recognised

> terrorist organisations list, they are either

> tacitly supporting these people or not doing

> enough to stop them. And you can't talk to these

> people, look they just want violence, they're not

> interested in negotiation.

>

> Next blockade this newly enlarged entity, shoot

> any planes attempting to land at Dublin airport,

> mine Rossalaire Harbour and bomb Knock runway.

> Only allow limited UN supplies through, though not

> antibiotics, you can make anthrax with that you

> know.

>

> Any houses we hear of that might have a bomb

> factory in we drop a 1000lb bomb on, if civilians

> die it's because these cowards hide out amongst

> the population in order that we bomb them for

> propoganda coups, it's not our fault people die,

> we have the right to defend ourselves.

>

> If as much as one soldier or policemen is killed

> or kidnapped we will level the infrastructure and

> manufacturing capability of the south (except

> maybe the Alienware factory in Athlone as I rather

> like their computers).

>

> If it happens again we send in the tanks and just

> start shelling the hotbeds (Cork springs to mind),

> but don't worry we'll drop some leaflets saying

> that if you're not a terrorist we suggest you go

> as we're about to shell the *flipping heck* out of

> your neighbourhood using illegal white phosphorus

> shells and cluster bombs.

>

> Rinse and repeat, they'll get the message

> eventually and then peace will reign supreme.

> Though no point lifting the blockade, as you can't

> be too careful.

>

> Sorted.

bogside,craigavon,farmland, all in the same sentence. you,ve obviously never been to craigavon mp, it makes the myatts field estate look like dulwich village. it was billed as the next big thing in the 70,s and its an absolute shithole of various housing estates identified by the colour of the kerb-stones. it also infamous for its roundabouts some of which don,t actually lead anywhere they just loop back onto themselves. the only thing its good for, is separating my hometown lurgan from that other cesspit of crap, portadown.

[mockney piers]

quite right there jimbob, poetic licence (i wasn't really talking about northern ireland...shhhhhh) ;-)

[Shu.Kurimu.Sensei]

OMFG a total lack of capitalisation there, grammar nazi alert!

http://i495.photobucket.com/albums/rr314/Shu_Kurimu_Sensei/grammar-nazi.jpg

[woofmarkthedog]

Ohh no

[Narnia]

Shu.Kurimu.Sensei Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> OMFG a total lack of capitalisation there, grammar

> nazi alert!

>

> http://i495.photobucket.com/albums/rr314/Shu_Kurim

> u_Sensei/grammar-nazi.jpg

Is this meant to be funny?

[Mick Mac]

Shu.Kurimu.Sensei Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I've been at work in separate buildings where

> there were confirmed bombs 3, yep, 3 times in

> London, lucky for me, each time, thanks to the

> sterling efforts of the Police and Bomb Squad, and

> other services, my colleagues and I managed to get

> out without being turned into catfood.

>

> The last thing we need is this kicking off into

> another bombing campaign over here.

Its incredible that all some people can think of is themselves in a situation like this. Its principally the people of Northern Ireland who have endured incredible suffering over the 30 years of the troubles and it is principally them who will again suffer if this thing starts again.

[Shu.Kurimu.Sensei]

http://i495.photobucket.com/albums/rr314/Shu_Kurimu_Sensei/whateverLG.jpg