Jump to content

Recommended Posts

I found this


" The considerable resources that public schools put into justifying their charitable status ? for example, ?365m a year in support for poorer pupils, according to Harman ? is an index of what they must know they gain by being charities. It reveals the scale of the effective state subsidy. "


from the above article ,particularly interesting .

Having just been visiting secondary schools in the area, I think anyone in the area who is struggling and scrimping to educate their children privately is, tbh, a bit foolish. We have some fantastic state schools in this area. Hilly Fields, Kingsdale, Charter, Harris, Sydenham School. Leave private to the bankers and oligarchs, send your kids to the local schools and use the money you've saved to enrich them through music, art, sport or travel.

Gubodge Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Having just been visiting secondary schools in the

> area, I think anyone in the area who is struggling

> and scrimping to educate their children privately

> is, tbh, a bit foolish. We have some fantastic

> state schools in this area. Hilly Fields,

> Kingsdale, Charter, Harris, Sydenham School.


Yes we do - IF your child can get in. Kingsdale as we know is a lottery, HF you must live quite close these days - last place admitted on distance has been as tight as 600m, Haberdashers in one band was 170m...

rahrahrah,


Aside from the point miga raises, I found myself disappointed as a DM fan to see his use of the highly questionable rhetorical device involving the children of foreigners. I doubt as a dyed in the wool Observer columnist he really believes that offspring of foreign plutocrats benefitting from a given posited subsidy is any more objectionable than those of domestic plutocrats doing so.


Henry

Quids - I don't think that's fair. He isn't calling for the abolition of private schools, just the removal of their charitable status (in fact I wouldn't even go this far - he's really just questioning said status). I don't really agree that the nationality of students is relevant, but do think charitable status is odd. The fact that he went to a private school is irrelevant to his having a view IMO. If he hadn't been to private school, people would say he didn't know what he was talking about, or that it was jealousy - he has, so he is accused of wanting to pull up the drawbridge. Name calling and attacks on an individual doesn't engage with the debate. It's notable on this thread that many of those 'defending' (if that's the right phrase) private schools have resorted to this - referring to peoples' general politics, social background, or claiming they are jealous, or have a chip on their shoulder. It suggests to me a paucity of good arguments in defence of charitable status.
James - as I said earlier - yes Heber are allowed to use the Alleyns field ONCE a year. They have also been asking for 6 years if they can use it more frequently, the answer has ALWAYS been no. I can provide you with detailed information if you would like to know more.

keane Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> James - as I said earlier - yes Heber are allowed

> to use the Alleyns field ONCE a year. They have

> also been asking for 6 years if they can use it

> more frequently, the answer has ALWAYS been no. I

> can provide you with detailed information if you

> would like to know more.


I agree and remember all too well how unavailable Alleyn's facilities were to local schools over the last 10 years or so


A field one day a year for a couple of years when the school is closed does not fulfil charitable status requirements in my opinion

Curmudgeon Wrote:


> A field one day a year for a couple of years when

> the school is closed does not fulfil charitable

> status requirements in my opinion


But it's not your opinion that matters, is it? As has been pointed out umpteen times, this is not a test of charitable status. You might not like that (and I'm not sure I do either), but that's the way it is.

BrandNewGuy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Curmudgeon Wrote:

>

> > A field one day a year for a couple of years

> when

> > the school is closed does not fulfil charitable

> > status requirements in my opinion

>

> But it's not your opinion that matters, is it? As

> has been pointed out umpteen times, this is not a

> test of charitable status. You might not like that

> (and I'm not sure I do either), but that's the way

> it is.



And let's not argue against the status quo eh?


My opinion matters to me :D

Re the Mitchell article, the fact that charitable status comes with tax breaks does not mean that private schools overall get a public subsidy. The ?365m in bursaries is a complete red herring - just the saved cost to the state of educating the 600,000 odd kids in private schools is around ?3 billion annually. Unsurprisingly, the Grauniad appears unfussed by the economic illiteracy.


"It's notable on this thread that many of those 'defending' (if that's the right phrase) private schools have resorted to this - referring to peoples' general politics, social background, or claiming they are jealous, or have a chip on their shoulder. It suggests to me a paucity of good arguments in defence of charitable status."


Re this, perhaps a Freudian slip - "defending private schools..". If the debate is about private schools in general (and many of the posts on this thread have ranged far wider than the issue of charitable status) then general politics and social background are inevitably relevant. Even the charitable status argument is essentially political - how many of those arguing in favour of public schools losing their charitable status are also having a pop at the RSPCA for wasting so much cash on ill-advised hunting prosecutions? Everybody has their own idea of what charity means; charity law has to be a little more certain and specific.

From an operational point of view, and I'm sure this could be resolved, having adults and children from other schools who Alleyn's have't CRB or whatever the new TLA is for this now would mean they need extra staff on hand to ensure child safety.

One way around this would be to ensure the fields are used at different times. But I can understand an initial H&S excuse on these grounds.

They'd also need to check insurances.


But the way to resolve tihs isn't via this forum.


My earlier post was written after checking with the Headteacher of Heber School.

DaveR Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------


> Re this, perhaps a Freudian slip - "defending

> private schools..". If the debate is about

> private schools in general (and many of the posts

> on this thread have ranged far wider than the

> issue of charitable status) then general politics

> and social background are inevitably relevant.

> Even the charitable status argument is essentially

> political - how many of those arguing in favour of

> public schools losing their charitable status are

> also having a pop at the RSPCA for wasting so much

> cash on ill-advised hunting prosecutions?

> Everybody has their own idea of what charity

> means; charity law has to be a little more certain

> and specific.


It's not a Freudian slip, I deliberately put it in inverted commas and said 'if that is the right phrase', because I actually don't think anyone is attacking private schools. However, there are individuals who are being defensive of private schooling generally, which is why I stated it in the qualified terms I did. General background may shape one's perspective on a topic, but it doesn't change the quality or otherwise of their arguments - calling people names - lefty (used as a pejorative), 'chip on your shoulder', 'Jealous Guardianista' etc. is not engaging with an argument, but mocking an individual.

Individual policies can always be debated, but I doubt many people would argue that the impact of the RSPCA is not largely positive and therefore worthy of public support.


Whatever your personal view, you would have to agree that there is less consensus with regards the impact of Public Schooling.

Whilst I'm all for having a bash at private schools when the opportunity presents itself - Keane may I respectfully say that Heber is not the only primary school in the area that would benefit from access to the fields at Alleyn's, or for that matter any of the JAGS or Dulwich College facilities.


And of course there may be other local school use, community groups, charitable activities that use the Alleyn's facilities that you are unaware of because it doesn't directly concern you or your interests.


If this is a matter of access to fields has anyone asked about using the St Olaves and St Saviours ground which is next to Greendale/JAGS which, as I see it, is largely under unused and gated off?


*puts on tin hat, crawls back under rock*

Alleyns publishes its accounts online.


http://apps.charitycommission.gov.uk/Accounts/Ends71/0001057971_AC_20130731_E_C.pdf



In 2013, Alleyns saw a net increase in total funds last year of ?4.3m of which about ?0.7m is a pension gain, ?1.4m was unrealised gains on market value of investments and about ?1.3m was a Dulwich Estate Capital distribution.


The schools seems to have received about ?3m from the Estate in total (note 3) and total bursaries were ?0.7m (note 2). Scholarships were an additional ?0.5m.


Of the costs, ?0.7m is depreciation on land & buildings. ?0.25m spent on non-pupil catering.


On cash, ?3.3m net operating cash inflow before ?1.3m of capex.

My husband born and bred in Camberwell was given a scholarship to Alleyns on academic merit and says it was pretty horrible always being the poor boy. He never wanted to invite friends home. Interestingly he's not in touch with any of his friends from his school days now.


Also, his scholarship was in the days when Alleyns had to provide a certain number of full scholarships for local children - so it could did something for it's local community. That's not been the case for many a year now.

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Latest Discussions

    • Gone to the better hunting grounds during this local ongoing dry spell.
    • The Dreamliner has an impeccable service history, you are more likely to get mugged on the way to the airport than having any issue with your flight, that's how safe it is!  Have a great trip.
    • Maybe. Does that kill grass? If so, possibly the same dog that has left its poo outside my house - pretty sure it's not fox poo.
    • Here you are, intexasatthemoment (you seem to have been in Texas for a very long time!) We went to three of the recommended places yesterday,  as they were all in the same road (just near Wallington)  and I needed to give the car a run to avoid another slap on the wrist from my garage (and another new battery). Here's my findings. BARNES Parking We thought we would go here first as it was the earliest to close on a Sunday (3pm). There was no apparent entrance or anywhere to park. One notice said do not park on grass verge, and another one said staff cars only! Flittons was opposite but I'd already passed the entrance, so I had to drive down the road, turn round at the next available place (covered in signs saying do not park here) and park in Flittons car park! Plants Barnes  specialise in hardy perennials, so that was basically what they had, but an excellent selection, and many more unusual plants (or at least, plants you probably wouldn't find in a garden centre), eg Corydalis,  lots of different varieties of Epimediums, Trollius, some lovely Phygelius, lots of different ferns). The plants were divided into sections according to whether they needed sun or shade or could cope with both. They had a particularly good selection of  shade loving plants. There was really useful information above  each group of plants, which meant you didn't have to look at individual labels. All the plants looked in good health and  very well cared for. They don't produce a printed catalogue, but they  said their plant list was online (I haven't looked yet). I assume most of  the plants they have at any one time are when it's their flowering season (if they flower). I wasn't intending to buy anything, though was very tempted, but I'd definitely go here again once I've sorted out my overgrown garden. Other Stuff Don't think they sell pots, compost, etc. No cafe/tea room and I didn't see a loo, but Flittons is just over the road. FLITTONS  Parking Easy to park Plants Sorry, but mostly terrible. There was one section with vegetables and the rest was flowering plants. There was a general feeling of delapidation. Some of what was on display was actually dead (surely it would only take a minute to remove dead plants) and a lot of the rest was very poorly maintained, eg gone to seed, weedy, apparently unwatered, or with a lot of dead leaves. There was a notice asking for volunteers to work there, so I can only assume they can't afford to pay staff. Other stuff There was a notice to a play barn (?) saying invited people only, so I think they must host kids' parties or something. They redeemed themselves with a cosy little cafe with savoury stuff, nice cakes, iced chai and oat milk, and a loo. Also a selection of books and CDs on sale for charity. If you want an Andrews Sisters CD, you can find one here. There is a small shop with gift shop type stuff and a display of the history of Flittons, which apparently is family owned since the sixties (I think it was). I suspect that the arrival of Dobbies down the road must have greatly affected Flittons' fortunes, which is sad. DOBBIES  Parking Easy in theory once you had navigated a rather narrow entrance, but it was very busy so it took a while to find a space. Plants  Lots of plants, well maintained but I imagine their turnover is high. Lots of nice bedding plants for hanging baskets, window boxes etc  to cater for all tastes (ie some of it wasn't mine, but fine if you like those horrid little begonias (my opinion only) but they did have some nice (in my opinion) stuff as well. I was tempted but decided to buy from North Cross Road market. Fair selection of climbers, various different Clematis etc. I'd be happy to buy plants from here. The prices seemed reasonable and they were in good condition. Other stuff  It's a big garden centre with all that entails these days, so a large area selling garden furniture and storage, tools, animal collars, pots, all the usual stuff you would expect. Very helpful staff. There's a cafe which we didn't check out, charging points for electric cars, a Waitrose (no idea how big, we didn't look). Only on our way out did we see that there was a drive through "express section" for compost etc, which was annoying as I wanted compost and hadn't seen any anywhere,  but I was getting tired by that time. Just Down the Road A ten minute drive away is Wilderness Island, a nature reserve in Carshalton, which is well worth a visit. We heard eleven different kinds of bird (according to Merlin) and saw a Kingfisher flying down the tiny river!
Home
Events
Sign In

Sign In



Or sign in with one of these services

Search
×
    Search In
×
×
  • Create New...