Godwin's Law

[Alan Dale]

removed

[Mark]

I see your point, but when a thread discussing the opening time of shops on Lordship Lane becomes a discussion about Nazis I think there's a point. I've already seen one flaw in your law Alan, the Administrator is not there to win debates, he/she's there to sensibly administer the forum where possible and using Godwin's law can just be used as a prop to drive home their point about going off topic.

The TV episodes you mention are not strictly internet discussion boards so they would not be prohibited by this law.

[Alan Dale]

removed

[Mark]

Just to recap a bit of history, the Nazi party took over Germany via a violent rigged election, then banned all rival political parties. They systematically shut down all voices of opposition, killing journalists, creating Nazi churches, and exiling academics. While gearing up for a war of conquest, they introduced eugenics into their school system, took all rights away from Jews, and brutalized other non-Germans. For dessert they launched a six-year war that killed millions of people, enslaved millions more, and systematically exterminated entire ethnic groups before retreating to a bunker and demanding their citizens commit mass suicide.*

It's down to personal opinion if they want to compare Nazis to traffic wardens but it shouldn't really water down the facts as to what they did.

Anyway you can be assured the law will only be used on extreme cases, mainly to drive the point home that threads go off topic. Like you say what matters here is East Dulwich and the local people, hence the Lounge for discussion about other things non-East Dulwich.

*(reason magazine)

[Alan Dale]

removed

[Mark]

apologies if you mis-read that, I wasn't aiming it at you, it was directed at the people in the pub you mention who use the term Nazi lightly. Got a bit heavy there didn't I.

To be honest GL will probably not be used again on this site, but I'm sure that Alan Dale's Law will one day find a use.

[edited once]

[mockney piers]

A bit over the top there Mr Dale.

Godwin's Law was brought up by me once it had indeed come into effect in an interminable thread about women only sessions that had really died a natural death weeks before but had been ressurected.

I used it in a humourous fashion but was glad when the Administrator saw it as the last call, after many others, to bury the thread once and for all. I think that was it's only application as far as I know.

Shouldn't this be in About This Forum anyway, the lounge is supposed to be fun. Or are you just having fun Alan ;-p

[Alan Dale]

Iremoved

[Keef]

Piers, I linked back to your example yesterday when a thread got in to Hitler territory. That's why this has come up. Again though, it was done in good humour! :)

[snorky]

*holds hands up*

I stated that It was the shopkeepers who elected hitler so I am the one who provoked this Godwins law stuff I presume - post now deleted - obviously they were not the only ones who voted for him,, but their "class" were the ones who embraced the new regime after being kicked about during Weimar and the inlationary period of the previous decade.There . ve said my piece.

anyway...........

[mockney piers]

Ok fair enough.

I think Godwin's Law has it's place as many forums are less than reasonable places and often frequented by younguns without a decent sense of perspective or americans, or both which is of course the worst of all possible worlds.

I left the thisislondon forums a long long time ago for the above reasons, mind you they were mostly adults and British and should have known better frankly.

This place is infinitely more reasonable and is anyway not really prone to the sort of left vs right type arguments that end up in ridiculous claims, comparisons etc. It only ever seems to be between salt o'the earth v ponces & chavs v reasonable people & originals v blowins & Nero v starbucks varieties, none of which lend themselves particularly to Nazi comparisons.

I'm fine with no Godwin (not that it's my decision) as I only brought it in humourously (I *do* think it's funny) but maybe it can be reassessed if the dynamic of the forum changes significantly at some point.

[Huguenot]

Godwin's Law is a manifestation of the concept of 'reductio ad absurdum' - the fact that extending a logical argument to the point that it delivers an 'absurd' conclusion renders the original argument invalid.

In this example perhaps (I didn't see the original exchange) comparing shopkeepers with Hitler was absurd.

Godwin's Law doesn't assume that every mention of Hitler is absurd, it just challenges the absence of rational thought that could draw such hyperbolic conclusions in inappropriate debates.

Hence in principle it's not something that's imposed from the outside in, it's a humiliation that the debater heaps upon him/herself.

Hence to hate Godwin's Law is strictly speaking to hate making a fool of yourself - nobody likes that, but most of us have the presence of mind not to blame someone else for it. Except me of course :))

Indeed we should be thanking administrators worldwide for covering up the moments of madness that would otherwise live in perpetuity to soil our reputations! I, for one, thank my lucky stars we have such a philanthropic bunch... ;-)

[Alan Dale]

removed

[mockney piers]

Ooh, fisking....light the blue touch paper Mr Dale.

Of course if i was going to start fisking too I could posit that you lost the argument and brought in Godwins law with:

>>I could call the administrator a 'plantation overseer' but not a 'death camp guard'.

in order to challenge that Godwin's law is there to stop absurd use of metaphor/simile, but I'm not going to do that, don't worry ;-P

[Alan Dale]

removed

[mockney piers]

Huguenot is well up there with you for banning this one, proposed it, but got neighed.

As a response format it used by a lot of usenetty type people long before fisking as a concept. So no go there.

I occasionally fisk on my political circular but am deeply ashamed everytime i do it, sadly sometimes it's very difficult not to.

Don't give up hope Mr Dale!!

[Alan Dale]

removed

[Huguenot]

Mockers, me ol' china, you kno fule well that I believe that there are significant benefits in fisking for those for whom entering "rational debate or building a coherent argument" can be a challenge.

Not really ;-)

What's disappointing about fisking is that it's essentially parasitic. In its execution it dismembers constructive and considered discourse into broken phrases stripped of meaning and context. It rarely contributes to debate. I remember when Louisiana last did it to me she complained that she couldn't make sense of my argument - well she certainly wouldn't after fisking it into something resembling rabbit pellets.

It's the literary equivalent of telling everyone else their plans for the Christmas Party are shit, whilst deiberately avoiding punting up any ideas yourself. ::o

It looks clever, but underneath it everyone knows...

[Mark]

Huguenot Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

>

> What's disappointing about fisking is that it's

> essentially parasitic.

That's your opinion and you're entitled to it

> In its execution it

> dismembers constructive and considered discourse

> into broken phrases stripped of meaning and

> context.

of course this depends on which side you're batting for

> It rarely contributes to debate.

Again, that's your opinion and you're entitled to it

>I remember when Louisiana last did it to me she

> complained that she couldn't make sense of my

> argument - well she certainly wouldn't after

> fisking it into something resembling rabbit

> pellets.

need I say more when you reduce the debate to rabbit pellets

> It's the literary equivalent of telling everyone

> else their plans for the Christmas Party are shit,

> whilst deliberately avoiding punting up any ideas

> yourself. ::o

What do you expect? It's not one's job's to organise but to discuss and if required to criticise (should that be necessary for the greater good of myself)

> It looks clever, but underneath it everyone

> knows...

you're the one

[bawdy-nan]

Gentlemen. Might I suggest you follow the example of the needlewomen of this parish and set up your own society. Perhaps the ED Union where you can dress up as 18th C gentlemen and debate in style. You might wish to contact the English Speaking Union who will, I'm sure, be happy to advise on your initial meeting, administrative posts etc.

[Alan Dale]

removed

[mockney piers]

You're right Bawdy, I'm regrowing my mutton chops as we speak.

[Huguenot]

Well much as I wear the right kit my essential character always shines through:

 

[mockney piers]