BNP - first euro seat

[david_carnell]

We haven't had hyper inflation with ten million unemployed.

We haven't just lost a major European war suffering hundreds of thousands of casualties.

The BNP do not have an armed wing carrying out attacks on rival political parties.

This current govt, whilst inept at times, is hardly the Weimar Republic.

We haven't been paying punitive restoration payments to our European neighbours not have we been banned from having an armed forces.

[Sherwick]

OK, I submit, you've got me there. However, there are some similarities too and it's these that worry me, and frankly, should really worry any non-white people in East Dulwich, South London, London, South-East England, England and the UK.

However, this is my opinion.

(To be honest, I think I meant what was the difference in their ideaologies, not the socio-economic context of the two countries at respective points in time).

[Marmora Man]

D-C and I are usually on opposite sides of the political debate - but on this we are one. The only way to confront the BNP is through rational debate and the provision of alternative policies. The former to discredit their obnoxious theories, the latter to attract potential BNP recruits to more mainstream politics.

I certainly like the idea of prosecuting the BNP under current UK & EU Law for discrimination - it has a certain elegance.

I would also comment that the protest, yesterday, against Nigel Griffin was, to my mind, counter-productive, making BNP opponents appear to be mindless protesters with no decent argument.

[SeanMacGabhann]

Although to be fair, there aren't many of the mainstream parties who haven't had an egg or two lobbed at them as well - it doesn't mark the BNP out specifically

Whilst I inherently agree with both Carnell and you MM, I am detecting a shift in the country generally - not just in voting the BNP but a more widespread, general, vengeful mood. Personally I don't like it one bit but I would be cautious about just assuming this is a mid-term kicking and noral service will be resumed at the next election

[*Bob*]

The bloke who organised yesterday's protest (doing the rounds last night on C4 News and Newsnight) was completely hopeless - more like an exuberant 18 year-old signing-up to the Anti-Nazi League on the first day of Uni, rather than grown man who's supposed to have had a decade to hone some sort-of reasoned argument.

I half expected him to offer John Snow a copy of Socialist Worker at the end of the interview.

[Jeremy]

david_carnell Wrote:

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> The BNP do not have an armed wing carrying out attacks on rival political parties.

I think they used to... isn't that how Combat 18 started?

[SteveT]

d-c wrote:- This could be a short and pyrrhic victory for the BNP.

pyrrhic definition, Metrical foot.

Pyrrhic with capital P is a war dance of the ancient Greeks.

Nothing like sticking to the point a david-c.

[taper]

Sean

"I am detecting a shift in the country generally..."

I think this is right. Righteous anger everywhere, and yet things are pretty good on all counts. We need to reassert our liberal values, on all fronts.

[SeanMacGabhann]

oooh you're not wrong. And those shoes.. what was he thinking?

[david_carnell]

SteveT Wrote:

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> d-c wrote:- This could be a short and pyrrhic

> victory for the BNP.

>

>

> pyrrhic definition, Metrical foot.

>

> Pyrrhic with capital P is a war dance of the

> ancient Greeks.

>

>

> Nothing like sticking to the point a david-c.

Nothing like pointless pedantry eh Steve. A Pyrrhic victory is one that comes at great cost to the victor. I think it's pretty obvious what I meant in relation to my point about EU employment law being used to prosecute the BNP.

I mean, really?!

[Marmora Man]

Whilst I inherently agree with both Carnell and you MM, I am detecting a shift in the country generally - not just in voting the BNP but a more widespread, general, vengeful mood. Personally I don't like it one bit but I would be cautious about just assuming this is a mid-term kicking and noral service will be resumed at the next election

I recognise the sentiment Sean but I think it arises more from an almost directionless anger - there's no doubt that the political system has let a lot of people down, nor that given the state of the economy that there's little that any government (left / right / centre) can do to alleviate immediate and future pains. Tho' I note the NHS have started their shroud waving early!

Therefore many are simply striking out at the nearest available target - a bit like punching the wall in anger. The target varies (and has done over last 9 months) bankers, politicians, immigrants, the media, GB himself, and so on. As at heart both an optimist and a believer in the innate goodness of the majority I do believe that the flirtation with the BNP will pass - it was, in any case, a perverse result of the EU electoral system rather than any significant growth in their support base.

For me, given my political slant, I believe the failure of big government was inevitable and the "rightward" slant in the EU elections (excluding BNP type elements) is the beginnings of a change of heart. (perhaps that's also optimistic?)

[Ted Max]

Is it student union debating to think that the constant wail of Broken Britain from the Telegraph and the Mail (the two worst, but not only, culprits) has had a part to play in this coarsening of mood. Or am I blaming the messengers?

[SeanMacGabhann]

MM - you state that the failure of big government was inevitable and yet it has been big government that has pulled the world back from the brink (for all the thanks it will get)

Speaking to individuals behind the scenes of banks and you realise just how close the whole thing came to breaking down - no wages in your account, no cash machines functioning, no bread on the table

Governments, as a tool of the people, have been a factor in things not working but givernments of any hue have, for some time, been beholden not just to big money, but to the very poulace who would cry out if the champagne had stopped flowing earlier. For that same population to now lash out is childish. So whilst "big givernments" across Europe are failing at the polls that doesn't vindicate your belief - it just shows how little interest people have in the real things that run their lives. For a large part of the poulation, a little less Britains Got Talent, a little bit more reading and engagement with your community would go a long way. Then we wouldn't have to suffer this hangover

[david_carnell]

Ted Max Wrote:

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> Is it student union debating to think that the

> constant wail of Broken Britain from the Telegraph

> and the Mail (the two worst, but not only,

> culprits) has had a part to play in this

> coarsening of mood. Or am I blaming the

> messengers?

Not at all Ted. I think that is definitely part of the problem. In innumerable ways the country is as good as it has ever been, yet from reading and watching various media outlets anyone would think that society is on the brink of collapse due to any of the following: drugs, crime, sex, alcohol, abortion, gays, young people, ethnic minorities, political correctness etc.

But good news doesn't sell newspapers. Just ask the owners of the Guardian and Independent.

[Marmora Man]

But good news doesn't sell newspapers. Just ask the owners of the Guardian and Independent

D-C just where is all that good news in these two papers? Just because they wear their left wing credentials on their sleeve doesn't exempt them from the imperatives of newspaper publishing (tho' the usually massive government / public sector spend on advertising in the Guardian may give them, slightly, greater freedom).

I'd agree that for many many people life is pretty good and that for almost everyone life today is far better than it was 25 years ago in terms of wealth, security and access to services. Nevertheless there are problems - and this government cannot avoid responsibility for many of them.

PS: truce over!!

[david_carnell]

Anecdotally (I buy the Guardian, my parents buy the Daily Mail) I would say that the left wing broadsheets tend to publish less sensationalised stories about the moral decline of Britain and scaremongering articles on crime. I doubt it would be possible to verify this theory though.

Of course there are some serious problems that still afflict our nation today, but I don't believe things are as bad as is often made out.

PS: Truce over?? You mean my enemy's enemy isn't my friend?! ;-)

[????]

on the other hand they publish sensationslist stories on the environment and scaremongering articles on those that queation the EU superstate...;-)

[Sherwick]

I don't read newspapers. I get all my news from a media outlet called the "East Dulwich Forum".

:)