im leaving on a jet-plane

[TillieTrotter]

I know what youre saying AP, but we always have to stick to realistic compromises, alot of businesses couldnt happen without international travel.

[Keef]

To be fair AnotherPaul, some people have to fly for their work, not for money making business reasons.... My sister has had to go back and forth to Cyprus several times in the last year (much to her displeasure), and she is not going to sell anything or make money for a big company.

I'd happily never fly "locally" again if I could go to Australia (or somewhere that side of the world) every 2 or 3 years.

How about we just stop all flights out of America, that way everyone's a winner ;-)

[TillieTrotter]

In saying that, my husband and I (said in Queenly manner) were laughing at the proposterousness (is that a word?) of the green treaty being signed by leaders flying in from all corners when they certainly could have used video link up. Just shows what a complete farce this situation is. Complete appeasement.

[mockney piers]

Most of my flights seem to be by leaving on a propeller plane, which I'm hoping isn't as bad.

Also someone said trains are cheaper which certainly hasn't always been the case in my experience (by some quite significant sums in some cases).

That said Mrs Mockers and I took Eurostar to Brussels which was great 3 hours door to door, and never more than a couple of feet off the ground, hurrah. If I can avoid a plane at all I'm happier as I'm a terrible flier and was pretty convinced I was a gonner on my last flight.

[Keef]

I'm not a big fan either, trip to oz was absolutely horrid, and that was with a good airline! Any odd noise and I'm convinced we're going down! :-S

[TillieTrotter]

I dont think anyone said trains were cheaper Mockers, just wishing they were so that they could be an alternative to flying.

[mockney piers]

Aah, my bad. Yes it would be nice.

I like to think I'm conscientious, but I'm not a wealthy man and am known to vote with my pocket despite my arguments here.

[spadetownboy]

AnotherPaul Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Sorry, can't be leaving the ecological issues

> aside, I'm having a red rag and bull moment. I

> don't want to start and arguement but I'm bothered

> mr spadetownboy, really bothered by this.

>

> At this point in the world, what with fossil fuel

> burning aggravating climate change (and leaving to

> one side funny pirate theories), how do you end up

> thinking it's a good idea to brag about buying

> several flights when those journeys could have

> easily been done by train? Yes they would have

> cost more but where's the value in saving a few

> quid whilst shafting the environment?

>

> Obviously it's not just mr spade who's thinking

> this, there seems to be an attitude abroad which

> goes something like 'i kind of care about the

> environment but not enough to actually change my

> behaviour.'

>

> Perplexed and genuinely interested to hear what

> others think.

>

> AP

to be brutally honest mate i couldnt give two tosses about the environment,when the likes of china and india et al sort out all their emmisions etc i might think about it then. like everyone else i do my recycling etc,etc and thats good enough as far as i am concerned. as regards flying to several destinations on the cheap i,ve no probs with that,the plane will be going regardless of whether im on it or not and thats were the value lies. so you keep on getting bothered really bothered and i,ll go and have a nice relaxing time.

[SeanMacGabhann]

Another reason to avoid flights is the complete nightmare that is the 3 hours kicking about in the shopping mall-cum-airport with your shoes in one hand, your belt in the other and your dignity somehere in the cab drivers back seat which is currently winging it's way back to ED

But all that said, there does seem to be an intellectual acceptance of the need to not fly which when faced with the day-to-day reality means that most of us fly on our moral credit card and hope someone else picks up the tab later. I try and not fly but when faced with a trip back to my family in Ireland the car/ferry option really doesn't wash (14 hours each way being just part of the equation)

I don't drive in London, always take a train where possible when travelling and walk as much as I can - and this is a change of behaviour for me compared to other stages in my life. And yet from time to time I do fly. Much less than I used to maybe but still...

But I still understand Paul's outrage just as much as I understand the more ususal pragmatic approach.

So that's my cake-and-eat-it take on this

[AnotherPaul]

True, politicians flying about to discuss climate change is nuts.

I'm all for pragmatic solutions so Keef, you sis isn't doing much wrong. For businesses the serial flyers are the problem, flying short haul a few times a month. That's just got to stop and it could be done on the phone. And there are so many other aspects of modern life which need looking at.

Football teams and supporters careering around the UK and europe week-in-week out. The media banging on about the environment then running Ryanair ads all over their pages and those 'necessary' trips to a far off lands. A month or so ago FiveLive did a show on the impact of climate change? from Mumbai. Fools.

Mrs Paul informs me (over lunch) that all those new RyanAir offers are due to them selling far fewer seats than their newly expanded fleets can carry. Hurrah! I hope they go bust!

AP

[AnotherPaul]

Sean, I like your cake and eat it approach, sensible. Flying's not bad in itself and being sensible about our carbon footprint doesn't mean we can't all have a perfectly relaxing time on holiday. What I just don't get is bragging about cheap flights as if it's really cool to not care about the place where you live.

Spadetownboy, if we all refuse to behave better until China and India sort themselves we may be doomed. They'll look at us and say 'not until they do', which means life on earth may expire over an disagreement as unsophisticated as a playground argument. What a complete waste.

I read a great analogy to climate change which completely undoes the 'not yet' reasoning.

Think about climate change as a process similar to falling out of a 40 floor building. If instead of concentrating on the hitting the ground bit you fixate upon being ok as each floor passes the whole experience would be kind of exciting. But as you reach the 1st floor you realise all of a sudden that you're fuck3d and it's far too late to do anything.

It is China and India's responsibility. It is also ours.

AP

[mockney piers]

I doubt life will expire. Earth has undergone far more radical changes than this and life has always found a way. Man, with it's ingenuity would probably be the least likely to dissappear though we're already entering a stage of mass species extinction as impressive (or depressing) as anything since the permian extinction of 250 million years ago, when the protodinosaurs were the size of budgies.

A whole cycle of life and another mass extinction 65 million years ago.

This one will probably be as traumatic as a decent ice age at absolute worst, of course the effects on civilisation will be utterly devastating with deaths in the billions.

Luckily that'll mean those that are left, jet packing (for they have to come one day...always in the future..i want one now) to the maldives will have far fewer germans to compete with for beach space.

[Asset]

Very interesting film on this subject called "Inconvenient Truth" which is following Al Gore (failed US presidential candidate) who is passionate about the subject and does talks all over the world.

It is well worth watching and is pretty frightening stuff.

HOWEVER: lots of shots of him looking wistfully out of aeroplane windows as he goes from place to place giving the lectures!

[AnotherPaul]

This issue is one great big 'however'. For every reason given to act there are 'reasons' not to, politicians flying about, off-setting being balls, India and China building a power station a minute.

Are we too sceptical to accept that we might be causing this problem but that if we stop the caveating (i know) and sort our lifestyles out then horror of horrors, there's an outside chance that Germans will still be holidaying in the Maldives in 100 years.

And that's surely worth the bother.

[mockney piers]

Hence my above link asset. I'll spell it out rather than hyperlink it this time.

http://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/forum/read.php?5,8800,8800#msg-8800

[Asset]

Don't get me wrong, the "however" was in no way meant to excuse any one from not doing as much as they can to minimise their carbon footprint. Personally, I bet I outgreen all of you!! (could be a new thread in the offing)

It was merely to point out the irony in the shots in the film - but then the Americans apparently don't get irony.

[Asset]

sorry MP - never bother following the links

[AnotherPaul]

Gore's lack of irony? Would be impossible to have any sense of humour at all if you'd stood and lost to Bush. Asset, you can out-green me if you want, I'd like to see you try. :)

Apols. for being a bit agro in here today, it is Monday as well as the flights issue.

Thanks Mockney. Being newish round here didn't realise this subject had been so well done a while back.

(AP steps away from rant brain and goes for a quick drive in his Range rover to calm down.)

[Huguenot]

The China / India thing, as I've pointed out before, picks up neatly but effectively on barely reined-in middle class racism.

For every 1 light buld per head of energy used by a Chinese resident, the UK uses 35 and the US uses 65.

Mind you, to stand here on our soapbox blamming johnnie foreigner for the problems created by our parasitic behaviour is one thing, to doing it whilst grinding their faces into the ground with 'I don't give a sh*t' is quite another.

The first is just rather myopic, the second more than shameful. Really quite unpleasant.

[mockney piers]

No probs Another. Not trying to stifle this debate at all, just thought it might be useful background to understand where some of us come from before we do complete 180s for a laff ;)

I miss Quaywe :(

[AnotherPaul]

Just got back, had to fill-up half way round the block.

Not feeling stifled at all but thanks anyway.

[clare]

If anyone wants to borrow an idealistic 10 year old then let me know. If I so much as type ryan air into the computer I have Ms eco head flapping round me telling me to stop killing the planet.

Got told off for buying peanut butter as contains palm oil.

Got told off for buying marshmallows as contain gelatine.

Got told off for picking her from school in the car. (don't normally but it was chucking it down. I thought i was being a nice mum).

Thank god I can eat Mars bars with a clear conscience............phew.......

[spadetownboy]

would,nt touch a mars bar now,full of animal guts.yuck.

[giddygecko]

Well having been to Oz to finally meet my partner after meeting on the web I guess I will have used ALL my quota of air miles & as she is coming over to UK for 9 weeks (mid June, yay :))) then I will have doubled my air miles by allowing & encouraging her to come here.

HOWEVER we are spending 10 days up in Scotland & as tempting as the flight deals were to fly to Edinburgh. I resisted the deals as I really dont believe in flying internally/locally, it is NOT quicker cos you have all the hassle of arriving early to check in rather than just jumping on the train, it REALLY IS damaging to the environment.

So I checked out Scotrail because if, like me, you are a forward planner, you can buy tickets WAY in advance at great prices. I managed to bag an overnight sleeper "bargain berth" for just ?19 from Euston to Edinburgh & that was for the entire berth NOT each. We then get a coach (yuk) from Edinburgh to Fort William, where we will stay in a luxury cottage, only affordable due to the massive savings made from booking all travel in advance. Then back to London on Scotrail & Virgin trains, again as booked in advance only costing about ?23.

So guys & gals it CAN & should be done. Hmmmmmm I feel slightly greener, thanks for letting me rant. Now the weather is improving I shall be putting aside my beloved Otis/125cc Suzuki Marauder mortorbike (not a typo!) & using my lovely aluminium bicycle to get me to & fro work.

Cheers GG

[SeanMacGabhann]

GG

I've taken tthe train to Edinburgh many a time and it's a great journey. Just long enough to read lots, have a few cold drinks and enjoy the scenery

I especially like pulling in to Newcastle near the bridge, and passing Durham, not mention arriving in Edinburgh itself. I'm jealous now... right, that's it, I'm booking a trip soon