I felt the same, never considered myself much of a unionist, but I did think we were 'better together'. Friends I have in Scotland, including English settled there, all now think the same.
I suspect the Tories aren't that bothered, we've seen how they were prepared to throw NI and their DUP friends under the Brexit bus, and it won't have gone unnoticed to Tory strategists that without the Scottish vote how difficult it will be in the future to ever kick the Tories out of power...

fishbiscuits Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think I prefer Sturgeon to Corbyn, by quite some
> margin.
>
> At the time of the first Scottish referendum, I
> really wanted Scotland to stay. But now... if I
> was Scottish I'd almost certainly want out of this
> shit show.

I’m apt to agree, they’re by no way perfect. But anything that takes Johnson out and gives the country a chance to relook at the whole situation is best if the two evils.
I’m resigned to the next ten years being a struggle, but not ten years more of Tory organised chaos, to then be told by the very party that created the chaos that they’re the ones to sort it out.

I’m also pro the union, as we are stronger together. But if I was Scotland, I’d be looking the idea of choice straight on and in the eye.

The knock on of Brexit are far reaching, and the dumbed down message of ‘get Brexit done’ is another deception. It’s not going to be ‘done’ by any measure in the near future. It’s much like putting the parents in a care home. They might be out of sight, but they’re there ‘dying slowly’ until dead for an expensive and long time yet.

Seabag Wrote:

>
> The knock on of Brexit are far reaching, and the
> dumbed down message of ‘get Brexit done’ is
> another deception. It’s not going to be ‘done’ by
> any measure in the near future. It’s much like
> putting the parents in a care home. They might be
> out of sight, but they’re there ‘dying slowly’
> until dead for an expensive and long time yet.

Like the analogy Seabag.

On the subject of the thread, given my concerns of Labour's stance on Brexit, I wrote to our MP asking her what would she do in my position. I received an excellent response which included links to everything she voted on.

My concern with Labour's current stance of 'putting it to the people', is that they could decide that a supermajority is required in a 2nd referendum for us to remain in the EU. That's why a hung parliament is the best option for me given the SNP and the Lib Dems won't buy into that I'm sure.

We have a Prime Minister who won't tell the public how many children he's fathered, yet has castigated single mothers. Marina Hyde's latest column pulls no punches...

Boris Johnson’s big contribution to reducing plastic consumption is not wearing condoms. Or as Gavin Williamson put it this morning: “Boris Johnson has done more for the environment than any other politician.” Quite. We don’t need a joined-up strategy to prevent climate catastrophe with the largest and most successful trading bloc the world has ever seen, because Johnson’s going to spaff our way to the higher ground, while we serve as galley slaves on his privatised sex ark.

Maybe I’m being a shade unfair. So let me say that this election marks a change of behaviour for the prime minister, who has finally started withdrawing. Unfortunately, he’s pulling out of climate debates and BBC interviews, as opposed to single mothers. Still, baby steps. And he’s certainly missed a few of those.

diable rouge Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> We have a Prime Minister who won't tell the public
> how many children he's fathered, yet has
> castigated single mothers. Marina Hyde's latest
> column pulls no punches...
>
> Boris Johnson’s big contribution to reducing
> plastic consumption is not wearing condoms. Or as
> Gavin Williamson put it this morning: “Boris
> Johnson has done more for the environment than any
> other politician.” Quite. We don’t need a
> joined-up strategy to prevent climate catastrophe
> with the largest and most successful trading bloc
> the world has ever seen, because Johnson’s going
> to spaff our way to the higher ground, while we
> serve as galley slaves on his privatised sex ark.
>
> Maybe I’m being a shade unfair. So let me say that
> this election marks a change of behaviour for the
> prime minister, who has finally started
> withdrawing. Unfortunately, he’s pulling out of
> climate debates and BBC interviews, as opposed to
> single mothers. Still, baby steps. And he’s
> certainly missed a few of those.


Marina Hyde is brilliant.

The rest of the article carried on in the same vein

I've tried not to watch too much TV debate, or jump on the knocking BoJo bandwagon in terms of his behaviours.

But Andrew Marr today was a bit of a shocker. No attempt to answer the question, it was like they were having parallel conversations. Maybe it is like a silent disco with two people dancing to separate tunes.

The lack of substance was frightening, just repeating that everything was Labour's fault, JC is a terrorist sympathiser and 120 days as PM holding no responsibility for the 10 years before. Ckakrabarty on the other hand, whether genuine or not, refused to politicise Friday's events. I'd refused to join in the common view that BoJo comes across as smirking but a smile was coming to his lips as if it was all a game.

Dare I say that JC for all his faults (poor leadership, general incompetence) does have much greater gravitas

CAn someone produce a video based on the Monty Python argument sketch - Cleese/BoJo Palin/Marr

too funny.

I’ve got a postal ballot and it’s Lib Dem for me!

I've suggested to the BBC remaking the Monty Python argument sketch; you can't e-mail the show directly and apparently there have been complaints of bias due to BJ ducking the issue. Well he did. That's not bias, that's fair journalism.

I've noted too misteaks in my earlier post so it's off to Rees-Mogg's plaice for some correcktion.

The secret barrister account on twitter created a long detailed explanation of IPP sentences and what happened in 2012/2013 and why sentences were changed.

It seems someone in Boris's team nicked it and sent it out under his name. I like the comment "This is weapons grade sh**housery."

[www.mirror.co.uk]

Suggesting that People HAVE to vote is like saying that if a vegetarian is in a pub and wants to eat
they must choose a Meat option if there is No veggie option.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit was 2019:12:02:11:35:03 by DNellie.

The problem with analogies is that they are rarely relevant to the situation in question. How is going to a pub for a meal anything like voting to see who governs us for the next five years? However, if the vegetarian had to stay in the pub for 5 years, I'm guessing it wouldn't be long before they started drooling over the bacon sarnies...

DNellie Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Suggesting that People HAVE to vote is like saying
> that if a vegetarian is in a pub and wants to eat
> they must choose a Meat option if there is No
> veggie option.


I was going through my old papers and shredding last week and found a demand that I register to vote with Bromley council (back when I lived there) with the threat of a 1000 fine and a note I was on the list to be prosecuted.

Wasn't compulsory to vote but they really wanted my registration.

Meanwhile.. Labour voters and Corbyn fanclub members up and down the country, desperately trying to convince themselves and others that a vote for Labour is a vote against Brexit. Utterly delusional!!

fishbiscuits Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Meanwhile.. Labour voters and Corbyn fanclub
> members up and down the country, desperately
> trying to convince themselves and others that a
> vote for Labour is a vote against Brexit. Utterly
> delusional!!

surely it's a vote for a vote on Brexit

which to me is the right answer - a referendum on the issue in isolation rather than with the surrounding chaos of the GE, as was the case first time around but with the benefit of more information and (hopefully) a binary outcome that can be delivered rather than delusional 'brexit means brexit' BS

fishbiscuits Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Meanwhile.. Labour voters and Corbyn fanclub
> members up and down the country, desperately
> trying to convince themselves and others that a
> vote for Labour is a vote against Brexit. Utterly
> delusional!!

I think some of the voters switching back to Labour are looking for another hung parliament not a Corbyn majority.

The less likely Corbyn looks to win a majority the more likely this group are to vote for Labour

Indeed. The worst thing that can happen for remain supporters thinking of switching away from Labour to the Libdems, is that they gift Boris seats in Labour marginals and therefore a working majority that pretty much rules out any chance of a 2nd referendum. This is precisely why Farage decided not to stand candidates in Tory held seats, marginal or otherwise.

Personally, I think Jo Swinson has been naive. She was the one person blocking a government of unity following a NC vote, by refusing to allow the leader of the opposition lead that coalition. That was the one sure fire chance to seize control of the Brexit process and get no deal off the table. A GE was always a huge risk, but you know these politicians always seem to think they are more popular than they really are. If Boris wins that majority on the 12th, she will be blamed for not having enabled that option to bring down the government. If Parliament is hung, she is going to have to agree to the very Corbyn led coalition she was so stubbornly opposed to before the election.

"Meanwhile.. Labour voters and Corbyn fanclub members up and down the country, desperately trying to convince themselves and others that a vote for Labour is a vote against Brexit. Utterly delusional!!"

It's a bit of a rock and a hard place. the only route to potentially allowing the country to choose not to proceed with Brexit is via Labour policy. There is no other route

But as we can see, Labour themselves don't believe in it, won't campaign for it and so would we really get anywhere? There are still not enough leaders spelling out clearly the problems with leaving - too many people still believe it's a benefit and not a shitshow. I know many people won't change their mind (eg The Cat) but the whole thing is so finely balanced it doesn't need many people to have changed their minds

But even tho Labour is the route to that possible reversal, you have to get them elected (a red flag for many) AND trust them to deliver (I don't)

But what options do we have



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was 2019:12:02:17:22:37 by Sephiroth.

Well, if you have the luxury of living in a constituency where the Tories don't stand a chance, then you don't have to vote Labour. If you're in Dulwich and Norwood, the Lib Dems have stood aside, so a vote for the Greens at least sends a clear signal that you're unhappy with Labour's stance on the EU.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was 2019:12:02:17:59:35 by fishbiscuits.

Sephiroth Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "Meanwhile.. Labour voters and Corbyn fanclub
> members up and down the country, desperately
> trying to convince themselves and others that a
> vote for Labour is a vote against Brexit. Utterly
> delusional!!"
>
> It's a bit of a rock and a hard place. the only
> route to potentially allowing the country to
> choose not to proceed with Brexit is via Labour
> policy. There is no other route
>
> But as we can see, Labour themselves don't believe
> in it, won't campaign for it and so would we
> really get anywhere? There are still not enough
> leaders spelling out clearly the problems with
> leaving - too many people still believe it's a
> benefit and not a shitshow. I know many people
> won't change their mind (eg The Cat) but the whole
> thing is so finely balanced it doesn't need many
> people to have changed their minds
>
> But even tho Labour is the route to that possible
> reversal, you have to get them elected (a red flag
> for many) AND trust them to deliver (I don't)
>
> But what options do we have


I’ve run out of parties NOT to vote for.

God help me!

second leaflet from the Greens- not very Green- anyone with half a brain cell knows they are around and can read their distortions of the truth

What distortions of the truth would they be Uncle? Meanwhile, if you really do want to see distortions of the truth, I suggest you watch Boris Johnson's car crash of an interview with Andrew Marr on iplayer. I suggest you also revisit the claims made by both sides during the referendum campaign ;)

People are wasting their time trying to reason with racist xenophobes, political jihadis who would be willing to sacrifice their first born on the altar of Brexit. Instead I'd like to hear the thoughts of any centre/left leaning Brexit voters on here who don't want 5 years of a Johnson Gov. To me there was never any chance of there ever being a so-called Lexit, it was always going to end up with a hard right government. Are you happy to accept that if it means Brexit? Does Brexit trump everything else?...

I watched, or tried to watch the Andrew Marr ‘interview’

How can anyone take that seriously, like really, wtf. But sadly they do.

I’m sure there’s a whole group of lifers in the Tory party looking on and wondering the same thing. It’s like a description I read of Johnson, likened to a rhino. He stomps, charges and throws dust up to cover his movements. He avoids the truth in questions and adds false premises and half factual statements, and then bullies on with bare faced lies, one after the other.

You saw how he weaponised the London Bridge attacks, where he knowingly attempted to turn the situation onto anyone but him and his party, their cuts and policies. Lies, mis truths, parry, deflection and blame. He’s been condemned by many respected prison reformers, and campaigners over it. But he’s shameless, and opportunistic. Dead people are collateral now. Anything is armoury to fire at the opposition. (How many times has he mentioned Jeremy Corbyn now?)

It’s like a snuff movie, where reality and anything you might recognise as decency in campaigning is killed off, live on screen, as the camera keeps rolling.

I’d talked to my kids in the past about the dangers of in complacency in voting, how historically the far right fed on it, but I’d been talking from a distance in time, looking back. But never did I think we’d be looking at such a blatant far right propaganda driven group of politicians in our lifetime, not here in our own country. It’s shocking,disturbing, and also very very real.

And lastly, the disowning comments about the past ten years of Tory rule, with “I’ve only been PM for 120 days!” as if that exonerates him from the policies and practices that have lead this country to this most challenging of places, is testament alone to the duplicity of the man. He, they are not to be be trusted, they don’t care that you know that either. They’ll do anything, anyhow, to form the next government.

God fookin help us!

Seabag Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> But never did I think we’d be looking at such a
> blatant far right propaganda driven group of
> politicians in our lifetime, not here in our own
> country. It’s shocking,disturbing, and also very
> very real.

Aided and abetted by an increasing rabid right-wing press and news outlets like the BBC who regularly report 'Downing St sources' without any critical thought, and can't see that they're constantly being played. There also needs to be a receptive public to these obvious lies, and that has been made possible under the umbrella of Brexit. Stop Brexit and you stop the lies, the charlatans, the creep towards fascism...

Calm down you two

Keep moving, nothing to see here...

You've been radicalised

Lolz, you're lack of self-awareness is endearing. Keep tuning into Brendan...