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messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by cella 13 December, 2019 09:33

TheCat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It's notthat bad people. It's more of the same....


You can only be this cavalier if you feel that nothing can shake your secure world. Don't worry about those less confident and fearful. Good luck with that and to all of us.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by cella 13 December, 2019 09:34

Hemingway Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> From Twitter
>
> On every level, Corbynism has been a foul debacle.
> It has stunk out British politics. The dustbin of
> history awaits. @#$%& off back to your paper sales
> and meetings above pubs. Give politics back to
> decent people.
>
> Well said

Do you count yourself as decent?

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by fishbiscuits 13 December, 2019 09:45

Well there's no denying that the Corbyn fanclub have at least partly facilitated this result. Surely even the most blinkered of disciples must realise this.

But as I said before, having a great local MP is a silver lining. It seemed like a good turnout... went fairly late in the evening and there was still a long queue. The ballot box was full and I had to physically stuff my paper in... almost got my fingers stuck!!

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by JohnL 13 December, 2019 09:59

fishbiscuits Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Well there's no denying that the Corbyn fanclub
> have at least partly facilitated this result.
> Surely even the most blinkered of disciples must
> realise this.
>
> But as I said before, having a great local MP is a
> silver lining. It seemed like a good turnout...
> went fairly late in the evening and there was
> still a long queue. The ballot box was full and I
> had to physically stuff my paper in... almost got
> my fingers stuck!!

@AyoCeasar and Bastani unrepentant - say it's a 30 year project. They've lost even me smiling smiley

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by JohnL 13 December, 2019 10:00

TheCat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Amongst the predictions of doom and gloom. At
> least the remoaners will finally STFU.....
>
> Jokes people.


There's nothing to say really - just let Boris get on with it and see what happens.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by TheCat 13 December, 2019 10:13

cella Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> TheCat Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > It's notthat bad people. It's more of the
> same....
>
>
> You can only be this cavalier if you feel that
> nothing can shake your secure world. Don't worry
> about those less confident and fearful. Good luck
> with that and to all of us.

'More of the same' = cavalier????

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by diable rouge 13 December, 2019 10:22

Busted, you're not really a cat are you?...

https://www.holidogtimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/cavalier-king-charles-cover.png

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by Loutwo 13 December, 2019 10:27

cella Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Loutwo Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Labourís fence sitting on Brexit and abhorrent
> > treatment of Jewish opinions, saw me vote Green.
> I
> > changed my mind in the polling station btw.
> >
> > So after 10 years of Tory rule, the people of
> this
> > country could not trust the opposition. Says it
> > all, and there will be plenty like myself who
> made
> > the same judgment call.
> >
> > No doubt the urban champagne socialists will be
> > cupping their ears and blaming the result on
> > Brexit and not on a unpopular Marxist leader.
> > Londonís bubble is just a out of touch echo
> > chamber. Not fit for purpose.
> >
> > Louisa.
>
>
> The fact that you've changed your mind/views
> several times and then made a snap decision whilst
> actually in the booth tells us much about the
> reliability and robustness of your decision
> making.


Or maybe it just tells us that if a true Labour voter struggled in the ballot box, then Labour is obviously doing something wrong? The anti- semites scared a lot of people, as did momentum. Keep blaming it on Brexit though.

Louisa.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by diable rouge 13 December, 2019 10:34

Loutwo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Keep blaming it on Brexit though.

While earlier it was..

> Labourís fence sitting on Brexit.......saw me vote Green.

Make up your mind. Oh I forgot, you can't...

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by fishbiscuits 13 December, 2019 10:34

JohnL Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> @AyoCeasar and Bastani unrepentant - say it's a 30
> year project. They've lost even me smiling smiley

A 30 year (or however long) project would make sense if their vote share was increasing throughout. If there was light at the end of the tunnel. But it's not the case, is it?! Second GE under Corbyn, and his share of seats has plummeted. The projection is downwards. The project, or whatever you want to call it, is not working.

I do honestly think that a very large proportion of the country would like to see more spending on NHS, education and welfare funded by progressive tax reform. I believe people want to see the green energy sector growing (and see it as an opportunity, not a burden). I think most people see the benefit of companies being able to hire the best talent from throughout Europe (and the world). All this is completely achievable within the context of a dynamic, entrepreneurial market economy... without disincentivizing the tech and finance sectors... without spunking away 100+ billion on re-nationalising everything you can think of... I feel like screaming because the obvious voice of reason is sorely missing from politics at the moment.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by diable rouge 13 December, 2019 10:38

Would anybody who has cited labour's fence-sitting on Brexit care to say what they should've done?
Which ever side they fell off the fence they were going to upset the other side...

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by fishbiscuits 13 December, 2019 10:50

diable rouge Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Would anybody who has cited labour's fence-sitting
> on Brexit care to say what they should've done?
> Which ever side they fell off the fence they were
> going to upset the other side...

I've been thinking about this. Up until now I've been critical of Corbyn's EU approach, probably because we all know that he's really at heart a eurosceptic. He sees it as a vehicle for capitalism and free trade.

However, in the cold light of day, I have to admit that even if the party had embraced a more pro-EU stance (say, second referendum and campaign to remain), it wouldn't have been enough.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by pk 13 December, 2019 11:01

Hemingway Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Oh so you are a feckwit after all. Why am I a
> bullshitter? Not taking it very seriously from
> someone whose already called me out for being a
> Brexiter based on Feck knows what

Cause whilst you claim to want to remain, in the Brexit election the only issue you focus on is AS in the Labour Party to the exclusion of pretty much all else (including the racist and homophobic behaviour of others)

And as someone who claims to have voted green you claim that climate change is in hand

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by Loutwo 13 December, 2019 11:14

diable rouge Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Would anybody who has cited labour's fence-sitting
> on Brexit care to say what they should've done?
> Which ever side they fell off the fence they were
> going to upset the other side...

Maybe they should have committed to leave or remain like the Tories did? Might not please everyone, but itís a position of clarity. Fence sitting has achieved nothing for them, has it?

But letís not kid ourselves, Brexit was only part of the story. The Labour urban bourgeoisie continues to excuse and deny plenty of other dubious aspects of policy approach.

Louisa.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by diable rouge 13 December, 2019 11:15

fishbiscuits Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> However, in the cold light of day, I have to admit
> that even if the party had embraced a more pro-EU
> stance (say, second referendum and campaign to
> remain), it wouldn't have been enough.

We'll never know but by doing so at least they could've formed a proper remain alliance with the other progressive parties. Kensington was just one example where the remain vote split and the Tories came through the middle.
You make a good point earlier about Labour having popular policies, it's just that they took them too far, and that played into people's suspicions that Corbyn is an extremist.

I don't agree with the sneery champagne socialist comments on here. Blair won by appealing to middle Englamd and the middle classes as well as it's core voters, no party can rely on it's base alone. The Tories have for some time appealed to the white working class, Essex Man, Mondeo Man, White Van Man (southern demographic) and now in this election Workington Man (northern).
Not much being said about Swinson, she was clearly out of her depth and very culpable as to why we ended up with an election that didn't have to happen. They had Johnson where they wanted him, an impotent PM, who had even lost the support of the DUP, whose deal could've been amended to suit i.e. 2nd ref etc, but inexplicably gave him a lifeline...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was 2019:12:13:11:27:01 by diable rouge.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by Loutwo 13 December, 2019 11:24

Blair did not try to appeal to middle england, Blair tried to appeal to everyone. That was his success as a unifying politician, or should I say Ďelectableí politician. He had the Tories number, he knew exactly how to engage with progressive politics, just as Sturgeon has done in Scotland. Echo chamber socialism does not work everywhere, particularly in white working class towns of the north. These people DO feel left behind as a result of Thatchers 1980ís decimation of industry, and need a voice which reflects their opinions. The Islington momentum brigade might be appealing to a few angry students and some champagne socialists who live in a 1 million plus house in Dulwich, but outside the M25 it doesnít cut the mustard. These are the facts.

Louisa.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by Loutwo 13 December, 2019 11:42

Iraq aside, I will leave this quote from Tony Blair here. Food for thought.

Tony Blair on Power, 1994 'Power without principle is barren, but principle without power is futile. This is a party of government. I will lead it as a party of governmentí.

Louisa.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by TheCat 13 December, 2019 11:58

Amongst the cat's wife's labour loving friends, there's no self reflection this morning. Just moaning that the 'right wing media' did a hatchet job on corbyn and labour. And all Britain are stupid and got 'hoodwinked' apparently.

Not one ounce of self reflection. I don't get it



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was 2019:12:13:12:02:52 by TheCat.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by TheCat 13 December, 2019 12:00

les-and-Boo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If you don't vote, you are basically agreeing with
> the manifesto of each party.


Thats a very strange statement. I made the conscious decision not to vote. Not through laziness, but purposefully. I'm very engaged in the political process, and I value my vote. And I didn't want to use it to endorse anyone that I had the choice of voting for. If I have the right to choose who to vote for, then choosing 'none of the above' is a right I also have.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit was 2019:12:13:12:04:25 by TheCat.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by rahrahrah 13 December, 2019 12:30

It is disappointing to hear so many on the left of the Labour party blaming brexit and insisting that they had the right policies. I agree, not much self reflection.
Another 5 years (at least) of austerity and never ending negotiations with Europe are not what this country needs imo.
Also very sad to see my children's freedom to move freely across the EU without restriction being taken from them, as though it's something they should be pleased about.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by pk 13 December, 2019 12:33

TheCat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> cella Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > TheCat Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > It's notthat bad people. It's more of the
> > same....
> >
> >
> > You can only be this cavalier if you feel that
> > nothing can shake your secure world. Don't
> worry
> > about those less confident and fearful. Good
> luck
> > with that and to all of us.
>
> 'More of the same' = cavalier????

You think actually pulling the trigger on breaking ties with the EU and crossing our fingers that the Donald will save the day (but not the environment) is more of the same?

Getting Brexit done is not the same as not getting Brexit done

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by pk 13 December, 2019 12:34

TheCat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Amongst the cat's wife's labour loving friends,
> there's no self reflection this morning. Just
> moaning that the 'right wing media' did a hatchet
> job on corbyn and labour. And all Britain are
> stupid and got 'hoodwinked' apparently.
>
> Not one ounce of self reflection. I don't get it


So what youíre saying is that your wife chooses stupid friends?

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by diable rouge 13 December, 2019 12:48

rahrahrah Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Also very sad to see my children's freedom to move
> freely across the EU without restriction being
> taken from them, as though it's something they
> should be pleased about.

Does anyone know what happens after Jan 31st re travel to the EU? Had we Brexited on Oct 31st I'm sure Patel said that FoM would've stopped the next day. Is it just a case of queuing at the Non-EU gate while EU passport holders laugh at us as they breeze through?...

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by rahrahrah 13 December, 2019 12:58

diable rouge Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> rahrahrah Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > Also very sad to see my children's freedom to
> move
> > freely across the EU without restriction being
> > taken from them, as though it's something they
> > should be pleased about.
>
> Does anyone know what happens after Jan 31st re
> travel to the EU? Had we Brexited on Oct 31st I'm
> sure Patel said that FoM would've stopped the next
> day. Is it just a case of queuing at the Non-EU
> gate while EU passport holders laugh at us as they
> breeze through?...

There is an 'implementation period' in the Withdrawal agreement, so FoM won't end straight away.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by DulwichFox 13 December, 2019 13:06

Have not travelled to any E.U. country since 1992. No desire to do so.

Have travelled Many Many times to Turkey outside the E.U. and pay £12.00 for a 90 day Visa.
So can have several trips on the same Visa.

Having to pay for a Visa to any E.U. country would not be a problem.

Freedom of Movement is mostly about working and living in other countries.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by diable rouge 13 December, 2019 13:11

Yep, must've missed that Patel was slapped down...[www.theguardian.com]

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by pk 13 December, 2019 13:34

DulwichFox Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Have not travelled to any E.U. country since 1992.
> No desire to do so.
>

Why ever not?

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by TheCat 13 December, 2019 13:39

pk Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> TheCat Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Amongst the cat's wife's labour loving friends,
> > there's no self reflection this morning. Just
> > moaning that the 'right wing media' did a
> hatchet
> > job on corbyn and labour. And all Britain are
> > stupid and got 'hoodwinked' apparently.
> >
> > Not one ounce of self reflection. I don't get
> it
>
>
> So what youíre saying is that your wife chooses
> stupid friends?

Probably unnecessarily aggressive there friend.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was 2019:12:13:13:47:37 by TheCat.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by seenbeen 13 December, 2019 13:59

DulwichFox Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Have not travelled to any E.U. country since 1992.
> No desire to do so.
>
> Have travelled Many Many times to Turkey outside
> the E.U. and pay £12.00 for a 90 day Visa.
> So can have several trips on the same Visa.
>
> Having to pay for a Visa to any E.U. country
> would not be a problem.
>
> Freedom of Movement is mostly about working and
> living in other countries.

Yes- as the EU have said recently that there will be a very basic trade deal with the UK if the UK does not accept Freedom of Movement.....obviously they view workers as part of a trade deal.
Anyone worth their salt, possessing skills and speaking a language would be welcome to work in most countries.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by uncleglen 13 December, 2019 14:09

cella Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> TheCat Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > It's notthat bad people. It's more of the
> same....
>
>
> You can only be this cavalier if you feel that
> nothing can shake your secure world. Don't worry
> about those less confident and fearful. Good luck
> with that and to all of us.

This is exactly how I felt when I thought for 1 second that Corbyn would get in and screw up MY already insecure world. And I am obviously not alone in that.

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