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The East Dulwich Forum
The Bishop, The EDT, The Great Exhibition, the Actress or another?
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messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by pk 13 December, 2019 11:01

Hemingway Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Oh so you are a feckwit after all. Why am I a
> bullshitter? Not taking it very seriously from
> someone whose already called me out for being a
> Brexiter based on Feck knows what

Cause whilst you claim to want to remain, in the Brexit election the only issue you focus on is AS in the Labour Party to the exclusion of pretty much all else (including the racist and homophobic behaviour of others)

And as someone who claims to have voted green you claim that climate change is in hand

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by Loutwo 13 December, 2019 11:14

diable rouge Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Would anybody who has cited labour's fence-sitting
> on Brexit care to say what they should've done?
> Which ever side they fell off the fence they were
> going to upset the other side...

Maybe they should have committed to leave or remain like the Tories did? Might not please everyone, but it’s a position of clarity. Fence sitting has achieved nothing for them, has it?

But let’s not kid ourselves, Brexit was only part of the story. The Labour urban bourgeoisie continues to excuse and deny plenty of other dubious aspects of policy approach.

Louisa.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by diable rouge 13 December, 2019 11:15

fishbiscuits Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> However, in the cold light of day, I have to admit
> that even if the party had embraced a more pro-EU
> stance (say, second referendum and campaign to
> remain), it wouldn't have been enough.

We'll never know but by doing so at least they could've formed a proper remain alliance with the other progressive parties. Kensington was just one example where the remain vote split and the Tories came through the middle.
You make a good point earlier about Labour having popular policies, it's just that they took them too far, and that played into people's suspicions that Corbyn is an extremist.

I don't agree with the sneery champagne socialist comments on here. Blair won by appealing to middle Englamd and the middle classes as well as it's core voters, no party can rely on it's base alone. The Tories have for some time appealed to the white working class, Essex Man, Mondeo Man, White Van Man (southern demographic) and now in this election Workington Man (northern).
Not much being said about Swinson, she was clearly out of her depth and very culpable as to why we ended up with an election that didn't have to happen. They had Johnson where they wanted him, an impotent PM, who had even lost the support of the DUP, whose deal could've been amended to suit i.e. 2nd ref etc, but inexplicably gave him a lifeline...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was 2019:12:13:11:27:01 by diable rouge.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by Loutwo 13 December, 2019 11:24

Blair did not try to appeal to middle england, Blair tried to appeal to everyone. That was his success as a unifying politician, or should I say ‘electable’ politician. He had the Tories number, he knew exactly how to engage with progressive politics, just as Sturgeon has done in Scotland. Echo chamber socialism does not work everywhere, particularly in white working class towns of the north. These people DO feel left behind as a result of Thatchers 1980’s decimation of industry, and need a voice which reflects their opinions. The Islington momentum brigade might be appealing to a few angry students and some champagne socialists who live in a 1 million plus house in Dulwich, but outside the M25 it doesn’t cut the mustard. These are the facts.

Louisa.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by Loutwo 13 December, 2019 11:42

Iraq aside, I will leave this quote from Tony Blair here. Food for thought.

Tony Blair on Power, 1994 'Power without principle is barren, but principle without power is futile. This is a party of government. I will lead it as a party of government’.

Louisa.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by TheCat 13 December, 2019 11:58

Amongst the cat's wife's labour loving friends, there's no self reflection this morning. Just moaning that the 'right wing media' did a hatchet job on corbyn and labour. And all Britain are stupid and got 'hoodwinked' apparently.

Not one ounce of self reflection. I don't get it



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was 2019:12:13:12:02:52 by TheCat.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by TheCat 13 December, 2019 12:00

les-and-Boo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If you don't vote, you are basically agreeing with
> the manifesto of each party.


Thats a very strange statement. I made the conscious decision not to vote. Not through laziness, but purposefully. I'm very engaged in the political process, and I value my vote. And I didn't want to use it to endorse anyone that I had the choice of voting for. If I have the right to choose who to vote for, then choosing 'none of the above' is a right I also have.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit was 2019:12:13:12:04:25 by TheCat.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by rahrahrah 13 December, 2019 12:30

It is disappointing to hear so many on the left of the Labour party blaming brexit and insisting that they had the right policies. I agree, not much self reflection.
Another 5 years (at least) of austerity and never ending negotiations with Europe are not what this country needs imo.
Also very sad to see my children's freedom to move freely across the EU without restriction being taken from them, as though it's something they should be pleased about.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by pk 13 December, 2019 12:33

TheCat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> cella Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > TheCat Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > It's notthat bad people. It's more of the
> > same....
> >
> >
> > You can only be this cavalier if you feel that
> > nothing can shake your secure world. Don't
> worry
> > about those less confident and fearful. Good
> luck
> > with that and to all of us.
>
> 'More of the same' = cavalier????

You think actually pulling the trigger on breaking ties with the EU and crossing our fingers that the Donald will save the day (but not the environment) is more of the same?

Getting Brexit done is not the same as not getting Brexit done

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by pk 13 December, 2019 12:34

TheCat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Amongst the cat's wife's labour loving friends,
> there's no self reflection this morning. Just
> moaning that the 'right wing media' did a hatchet
> job on corbyn and labour. And all Britain are
> stupid and got 'hoodwinked' apparently.
>
> Not one ounce of self reflection. I don't get it


So what you’re saying is that your wife chooses stupid friends?

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by diable rouge 13 December, 2019 12:48

rahrahrah Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Also very sad to see my children's freedom to move
> freely across the EU without restriction being
> taken from them, as though it's something they
> should be pleased about.

Does anyone know what happens after Jan 31st re travel to the EU? Had we Brexited on Oct 31st I'm sure Patel said that FoM would've stopped the next day. Is it just a case of queuing at the Non-EU gate while EU passport holders laugh at us as they breeze through?...

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by rahrahrah 13 December, 2019 12:58

diable rouge Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> rahrahrah Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > Also very sad to see my children's freedom to
> move
> > freely across the EU without restriction being
> > taken from them, as though it's something they
> > should be pleased about.
>
> Does anyone know what happens after Jan 31st re
> travel to the EU? Had we Brexited on Oct 31st I'm
> sure Patel said that FoM would've stopped the next
> day. Is it just a case of queuing at the Non-EU
> gate while EU passport holders laugh at us as they
> breeze through?...

There is an 'implementation period' in the Withdrawal agreement, so FoM won't end straight away.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by DulwichFox 13 December, 2019 13:06

Have not travelled to any E.U. country since 1992. No desire to do so.

Have travelled Many Many times to Turkey outside the E.U. and pay £12.00 for a 90 day Visa.
So can have several trips on the same Visa.

Having to pay for a Visa to any E.U. country would not be a problem.

Freedom of Movement is mostly about working and living in other countries.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by diable rouge 13 December, 2019 13:11

Yep, must've missed that Patel was slapped down...[www.theguardian.com]

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by pk 13 December, 2019 13:34

DulwichFox Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Have not travelled to any E.U. country since 1992.
> No desire to do so.
>

Why ever not?

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by TheCat 13 December, 2019 13:39

pk Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> TheCat Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Amongst the cat's wife's labour loving friends,
> > there's no self reflection this morning. Just
> > moaning that the 'right wing media' did a
> hatchet
> > job on corbyn and labour. And all Britain are
> > stupid and got 'hoodwinked' apparently.
> >
> > Not one ounce of self reflection. I don't get
> it
>
>
> So what you’re saying is that your wife chooses
> stupid friends?

Probably unnecessarily aggressive there friend.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was 2019:12:13:13:47:37 by TheCat.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by seenbeen 13 December, 2019 13:59

DulwichFox Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Have not travelled to any E.U. country since 1992.
> No desire to do so.
>
> Have travelled Many Many times to Turkey outside
> the E.U. and pay £12.00 for a 90 day Visa.
> So can have several trips on the same Visa.
>
> Having to pay for a Visa to any E.U. country
> would not be a problem.
>
> Freedom of Movement is mostly about working and
> living in other countries.

Yes- as the EU have said recently that there will be a very basic trade deal with the UK if the UK does not accept Freedom of Movement.....obviously they view workers as part of a trade deal.
Anyone worth their salt, possessing skills and speaking a language would be welcome to work in most countries.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by uncleglen 13 December, 2019 14:09

cella Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> TheCat Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > It's notthat bad people. It's more of the
> same....
>
>
> You can only be this cavalier if you feel that
> nothing can shake your secure world. Don't worry
> about those less confident and fearful. Good luck
> with that and to all of us.

This is exactly how I felt when I thought for 1 second that Corbyn would get in and screw up MY already insecure world. And I am obviously not alone in that.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by pk 13 December, 2019 14:12

TheCat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> pk Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > TheCat Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Amongst the cat's wife's labour loving
> friends,
> > > there's no self reflection this morning. Just
> > > moaning that the 'right wing media' did a
> > hatchet
> > > job on corbyn and labour. And all Britain are
> > > stupid and got 'hoodwinked' apparently.
> > >
> > > Not one ounce of self reflection. I don't get
> > it
> >
> >
> > So what you’re saying is that your wife chooses
> > stupid friends?
>
> Probably unnecessarily aggressive there friend.

You’re the one insulting your wife’s friends

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by TheCat 13 December, 2019 14:34

pk Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> TheCat Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > pk Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > TheCat Wrote:
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > > -----
> > > > Amongst the cat's wife's labour loving
> > friends,
> > > > there's no self reflection this morning.
> Just
> > > > moaning that the 'right wing media' did a
> > > hatchet
> > > > job on corbyn and labour. And all Britain
> are
> > > > stupid and got 'hoodwinked' apparently.
> > > >
> > > > Not one ounce of self reflection. I don't
> get
> > > it
> > >
> > >
> > > So what you’re saying is that your wife
> chooses
> > > stupid friends?
> >
> > Probably unnecessarily aggressive there friend.
>
> You’re the one insulting your wife’s friends


Uh. No mate. That would be you insulting them. I was confused by the lack of self-reflection. You decided to label people as stupid.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by pk 13 December, 2019 14:44

TheCat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> pk Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > TheCat Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > pk Wrote:
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > > -----
> > > > TheCat Wrote:
> > > >
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > >
> > > > -----
> > > > > Amongst the cat's wife's labour loving
> > > friends,
> > > > > there's no self reflection this morning.
> > Just
> > > > > moaning that the 'right wing media' did a
> > > > hatchet
> > > > > job on corbyn and labour. And all Britain
> > are
> > > > > stupid and got 'hoodwinked' apparently.
> > > > >
> > > > > Not one ounce of self reflection. I don't
> > get
> > > > it
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > So what you’re saying is that your wife
> > chooses
> > > > stupid friends?
> > >
> > > Probably unnecessarily aggressive there
> friend.
> >
> > You’re the one insulting your wife’s friends
>
>
> Uh. No mate. That would be you insulting them. I
> was confused by the lack of self-reflection. You
> decided to label people as stupid.

No I didn’t

I don’t even know them

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by diable rouge 13 December, 2019 14:56

TheCat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Not one ounce of self reflection. I don't get it

The one person who needs to do this is Corbyn. But he can't even apologise, only that it's Brexit's fault and then bleats on about doubling membership. On that subject, people talking about joining up so they can influence the choice of a new leader, otherwise as things stand it will be a mini-me Corbyn voted in by Momentum. Personally I can see Keir Starmer with Jess Phillips working, appealing to a broad spectrum. Starmer was one of the few Labour front benchers to come out with any plaudits, and Phillips has shown that a Remainer can win with a comfortable majority in an area that voted Leave...

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by diable rouge 13 December, 2019 15:01

Can we have a rule that once we get to 3 > > >, we stop hitting the Reply To This Message link, or at least edit out the previous guff?...

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by Hemingway 13 December, 2019 15:08

pk Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hemingway Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Oh so you are a feckwit after all. Why am I a
> > bullshitter? Not taking it very seriously from
> > someone whose already called me out for being a
> > Brexiter based on Feck knows what
>
> Cause whilst you claim to want to remain, in the
> Brexit election the only issue you focus on is AS
> in the Labour Party to the exclusion of pretty
> much all else (including the racist and homophobic
> behaviour of others)

Er , I didn't set out to write a manifesto or critique everyones policy . I just pointed out the contortions around the denial of AS on social media by many people who claim to be progressive. You have some bizarre logic or don't understand how a forum works. YES I VOTED REMAIN. You think I'm lying on a forum, with hidden identity to a stranger> Bizzare.
>
> And as someone who claims to have voted green you
> claim that climate change is in hand

I voted green, I did honestly, cross my heart and hope to die... not some bizarre false claim on an anotminous website, as they were the Remain option with the Liberal Democrats standing down here for them.

Surreal man

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by diable rouge 13 December, 2019 15:11

Nicola Sturgeon...So, given the verdict of the people of Scotland last night, the Scottish Government will next week publish the detailed democratic case for a transfer of power to enable a referendum to be put beyond legal challenge.
That didn't take long...

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by pk 13 December, 2019 15:21

Hemingway Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> pk Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Hemingway Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Oh so you are a feckwit after all. Why am I a
> > > bullshitter? Not taking it very seriously
> from
> > > someone whose already called me out for being
> a
> > > Brexiter based on Feck knows what
> >
> > Cause whilst you claim to want to remain, in
> the
> > Brexit election the only issue you focus on is
> AS
> > in the Labour Party to the exclusion of pretty
> > much all else (including the racist and
> homophobic
> > behaviour of others)
>
> Er , I didn't set out to write a manifesto or
> critique everyones policy . I just pointed out the
> contortions around the denial of AS on social
> media by many people who claim to be progressive.
> You have some bizarre logic or don't understand
> how a forum works. YES I VOTED REMAIN. You think
> I'm lying on a forum, with hidden identity to a
> stranger> Bizzare.
> >
> > And as someone who claims to have voted green
> you
> > claim that climate change is in hand
>
> I voted green, I did honestly, cross my heart and
> hope to die... not some bizarre false claim on an
> anotminous website, as they were the Remain
> option with the Liberal Democrats standing down
> here for them.
>
> Surreal man


Yeah BS and trolling on a forum is unheard of

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by keano77 13 December, 2019 15:34

diable rouge Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Nicola Sturgeon...So, given the verdict of the
> people of Scotland last night, the Scottish
> Government will next week publish the detailed
> democratic case for a transfer of power to enable
> a referendum to be put beyond legal challenge.
> That didn't take long...

It will be interesting watching what happens in Scotland.

Alex Salmond’s court case in January could do a lot of harm to the SNP and partly explains Sturgeon’s haste.

More interesting perhaps is a point made by Andrew Marr this morning. If, or when, Boris agrees to an Independence vote for Scotland the U.K. will probably have left the EU. Scotland would then be faced with voting to leave the U.K. while also being outside the EU.

Squeaky bum time.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by fishbiscuits 13 December, 2019 15:42

I think the Scottish already realise they'd need to apply to join the EU. They wouldn't suddenly leave the UK overnight, there would be time to get these things sorted out.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by Trinnydad 13 December, 2019 18:05

fishbiscuits Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think the Scottish already realise they'd need
> to apply to join the EU. They wouldn't suddenly
> leave the UK overnight, there would be time to get
> these things sorted out.

Please, please, they are "Scots" ( noun) not "Scottish" (adjective).

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by NewWave 13 December, 2019 20:06

fishbiscuits Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think the Scottish already realise they'd need
> to apply to join the EU. They wouldn't suddenly
> leave the UK overnight, there would be time to get
> these things sorted out

As a lifelong labour supporter I have to have to say Corbyn lost us this election.
I didn't vote for Corbyn but I voted Labour as an anti Boris vote (previous election I had migrated to libdem because I didn't agree with Corbyn but decided this time to go back to Labour)
I wept this morning when I heard the results.
I can only pray that Labour find another electable leader and until then I can only hope that the future under the lying buffoon isn't as terrible as I fear it may be.

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