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messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by Abe_froeman June 29, 04:26PM

Lol Crystal Palace Triangle is closed for road works !

Do you work in the council's traffic data team??

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by slarti b June 29, 06:37PM

I popped down there this afternoon on way to Post Office around 3.30. Long queues in Dulwich Village going North from Roundabout (and before). Not unexpected given narrowing of road to one Lane. Cars that would have turned right into Calton will now go North along Dulwich Village to Red Post Hill then right along EDG.

Similarly cars that would gone South East along Calton will now go along EDG then South along Dulwich Village.

Poorly thought out and opportunistic. Just diverting most of the through traffic really.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was june 29, 06:38pm by slarti b.

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by Rockets June 29, 06:57PM

And we need to bear in mind that traffic is still a lot lower as the majority of people are still not back at work. We also need to factor in that there has been no warning of this bar a couple of temporary road-signs put up along Calton Avenue - we walked passed them on Sunday and I was surprised there were none along Court Lane.

To rahrahrah's point - yes sat navs may be alerted to the closure but that also means they will now be routing cars via backstreets to completed their journeys - it's what happened at Loughborough Junction - Waze, GoogleMaps etc just took people around the houses.

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by flanter June 29, 07:39PM

This is great. The changes to Champion hill have added up to ten minutes to my journey to work and now the inspired and ill thought out changes to the end of Court Lane adds another ten minutes. That's twenty minutes of my car sitting there burning fossils, can't afford an electric, would love one, can't take a bus (genetic reasons) and cycle when I can.

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by thebestnameshavegone June 29, 07:44PM

Went past earlier, looks fantastic. Hope this is the first of many.

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by first mate June 29, 08:09PM

But aside from what it looks like, what is your response to the experience of those like the poster above you?

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by march46 June 29, 08:17PM

slarti b Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I popped down there this afternoon on way to Post
> Office around 3.30. Long queues in Dulwich
> Village going North from Roundabout (and before).
> Not unexpected given narrowing of road to one
> Lane. Cars that would have turned right into
> Calton will now go North along Dulwich Village to
> Red Post Hill then right along EDG.
>
> Similarly cars that would gone South East along
> Calton will now go along EDG then South along
> Dulwich Village.
>
> Poorly thought out and opportunistic. Just
> diverting most of the through traffic really.


slarti b - you've spoken from a onedulwich perspective previously so I wonder if you can clarify how the displacement at 3.30pm would have differed under the onedulwich solution (which I believe would have operated at peak times)?

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by Abe_froeman June 29, 08:19PM

I guess it wouldn't have given that all the schools are currently closed and so none of this traffic is school traffic

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by thebestnameshavegone June 29, 08:31PM

It sounds like a lovely anecdote, I look forward to seeing the data once the scheme has had a chance.

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by Abe_froeman June 29, 09:10PM

What data?!

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by rollflick June 29, 09:45PM

It's a great improvement for walking and cycling. Hope the half of carriageway by the hairdresser/ shops can be made walking /seats only, with bikes going round the other side of the island.

rahrahrah Wrote:
------------------
> That said, CPZs only entrench the idea that cars have an unquestionable right to dominate public space. Personally, I > would like to see a lot of space reallocated away from car storage, to prioritising bikes and people.

Well the Peckham West CPZ has done exactly that, lots more space for social distancing now on some of London's narrowest pavements. Hope the council can extend CPZs soon south of ED Grove, where pavements are narrow too.

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by slarti b June 30, 12:49AM

march46 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> slarti b - you've spoken from a onedulwich perspective previously so I wonder if you can
> clarify how the displacement at 3.30pm would have differed under the onedulwich solution (which I
> believe would have operated at peak times)?

March,
Are you asking the question in the context of the OHS scheme or the current "temporary" Covid measures?
As part of OHS, the One Dulwich scheme would work in conjunction with other OHS measures in Area C such as closure of DV Northbound at peak times and Turney Road becoming one way. This would significantly reduce through traffic but would result in less traffic diversion than Southwarks's OHS proposals.

Closing the DV junction, or restricting at peak times, by itself is not part of the OneDulwich concept. Anyone who understands the traffic flows in the area will know this will cause diversion and extra traffic along alternative routes as I mentioned previously; going North or North East principally DV North and EDG but maybe also Court Lane\Dovercourt\Townley\EDG or Dekker\Calton\Townley etc. Going South ould be EDG\Townley Lordship Lane or DV South. Any action taken at DV junction, whether permanent or temporary, will have significant impact elsewhere which is why I think it is opportunistic and ill considered.

The reality is that closing the DV junction by itself, without reducing traffic coming into Area's A and B, will just cause diversion of traffic, often past local schools. But if you reduce through traffic coming into the area, the complete closure of DV junction is not needed as traffic volumes will be massively reduced.

So, can I ask you how you, or rather the Councillors, assess the impact of diverted traffic under both the proposed OHS scheme and the current closure of the DV junction. This was barely covered in the OHS phase 3 slides apart from saying that this traffic should be diverted onto "main roads". Please tell me which roads these are? Looking at the traffic flows these are likely to be Croxted road, Lordship lane, East Dulwich Grove, Matham Grove and Half Moon Lane. Can you confirm this ?
And remember, the OHS slides estimate a maximum of 11% of traffic will evaporate, that leaves over 6,000 traffic movements to relocate.

Final point, we do need to be careful about looking at long term decisions based on current traffic volumes. More people are probably driving to work but there is much less school traffic, especially the Foundation schools that cause so much congestion during their term time. As we have seen, the council officers and the Councillors seem very happy to promote alarmist tales based on highly misleading statistics (the "47% increase" in traffic through the junction). Any conclusions presented by the council need to be backed up by detailed, objective data that can be independently reviewed.

I look forward to you reply.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was june 30, 12:50am by slarti b.

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by northernmonkey June 30, 07:41AM

Slarti b: I'm not sure I understand your response above. You have stated that

"Closing the DV junction, or restricting at peak times, by itself is not part of the OneDulwich concept"

The One Dulwich 'tagline' is literally 'Timed restrictions, not permanent closures'. Can you clarify please?

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by intexasatthe moment June 30, 08:11AM

On a side note ,am I the only one who was disapointed that the closure points aren't shown on the map in Southwark's consultation document
[dulwichvillagestreetspace.commonplace.is] ?

It would make it so much easier ( for me at least ) to consider the new arrangement if it were presented visually .

I may well have missed the map showing the closures so hopefully someone can share a link .

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by heartblock June 30, 09:16AM

East Dulwich Grove is definitely not healthy at 9:00am....standing traffic all the way up to the crossroads with the Village. Awful for cyclists, school children, pedestrians and I imagine car users. Standing traffic, fumes and pollution.

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by slarti b June 30, 10:26AM

@Northernmonkey

March46 was comparing the current point closure of the DV junction with the One Dulwich proposal. My point was that One Dulwich needs to be looked at in the context of the wider measures in OHS in particular Area C. We have never proposed restrictions on DV junction by itself. This has come about because the Councillors have taken advantage of the Covid 19 situation to rush through ill considered changes.

Southwark's OHS scheme for area B has 3 or 4 timed restrictions and 2 permanent closures. OneDulwich proposes turning all of those into timed restrictions. In area C there are at least 2 further timed restictions so the concept is well established even by Southwark. Hope that answers your question.

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by dulwichquine June 30, 10:33AM

Just wondering why the council has closed the DV junction just as the schools are closing?! If deemed necessary to protect school children, why not do it for when schools re-open?

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by exdulwicher June 30, 10:34AM

Quote:
East Dulwich Grove is definitely not healthy at 9:00am....standing traffic all the way up to the crossroads with the Village. Awful for cyclists, school children, pedestrians and I imagine car users. Standing traffic, fumes and pollution.

It'll take a month or so to bed in and for any changes in traffic patterns / flow / volume to settle down. Not much point in looking at it after <24hrs in place.

@slartib is right, they should have done the whole Healthy Streets thing at the same time while traffic is relatively light. I appreciate that timed restrictions are difficult without camera controlled junctions which you can't put in at short notice but the principle of the HS is difficult to assess when you close one junction.

However - it's in now, people will (gradually) adapt and in 6 months time a proper assessment can be done.

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by Rockets June 30, 10:49AM

To Slarti b's point - the issue a lot of people have is that the council is taking a shotgun approach to this - there is no area-wide thinking - they just want to throw roadblocks in at points that they think are rat-runs and are presuming that car-use plummets on the back of it - they know, and we know, that isn't the case - you might lose 10% of car-use as locals consider different ways to travel to local destinations but there will still be through-traffic - it just goes another route. At the same time the council do nothing to support Lordship lane in terms of assisting with social distancing.

This is why so many people are registering their support for One Dulwich - they are fed-up with the council not listening to the people who actually live across the area as a whole. The council will only ever listen to a vocal minority in hand-picked areas and activists with a vested-interest - and they are tone-deaf to anyone with a differing opinion to their own - and actually quite disparaging to them - look at the way they handled the public meetings on the CPZ.

The council are reaping what they sow - when you extend double-yellow lines to create parking pressure, when 68% of people in an area vote against a CPZ and you change the parameters so you can go ahead with it, when you lie to justify additional closures and you ignore the electorate the electorate have to take matters into their own hands.

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by Metallic June 30, 10:55AM

rahrahrah Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The planters have gone in today and look great.
> Now we need to get something done to make space
> for people in ED. Whilst I support the measures in
> the village, why Southwark have identified one of
> the most affluent and lowest density areas as the
> priority for creating more space for people is
> questionable. Let's see some work done over the
> border quickly please.

Simple answer, it is because everyone from West Dulwich, Crystal Palace, Forest Hill, you name it, who need to go nearby, use OUR roads, pollute OUR children, block OUR access. These measures are for social distancing for the thousands of children who access all the schools, not for the affluent people who live in the area.

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by Rockets June 30, 10:57AM

dulwichquine Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Just wondering why the council has closed the DV
> junction just as the schools are closing?! If
> deemed necessary to protect school children, why
> not do it for when schools re-open?

It's because they can fudge the figures - I guarantee you they will compare pre-Covid traffic levels to the next 3 months when they know there are no schools and some people are still working from home and claim the measures are a rip-roaring success. Cut to the late-Autumn when schools are back, the weather is dire and people are back at work and worried about public transport and it will be chaos.

As we have seen before you can't believe anything the council uses to justify their current cause-celebre and I suspect we can see what they are planning already for this project...

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by thebestnameshavegone June 30, 12:28PM

You need to start somewhere though.

And unfortunately, there is an air quality crisis in London, and there are too many car journeys.

Long consultations and hand-wringing aren't the way forward - better infrastructure comes from many, many small things over time with additive effect rather than massive initiatives that happen all at once.

So, you close some junctions, install some lanes, drop some kerbs, and you keep doing it. It's deeply unsexy in terms of what you actually have to do. And people will moan about it, as they do all over the world. And yes, people will be unhappy as it's the status quo being changed, and people are averse to the status quo changing.

What you have in this area particularly is highly-mobilised, university educated people who are very wedded to their cars, so not surprisingly, they are moaning about it loudly.

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by mrwb June 30, 12:50PM

These traffic problems will self solve in a few years as people leave. London's becoming a seriously unpleasant place to live. With all the traffic, crime and being charged endlessly for what was free before.

The ongoing Covid 19 situation and it's huge economic impact will be the catalyst.

Likely to see a long period of depopulate as last happened after the prior peak in 1939, that continued till it troughed in about 1990.

It's a cycle and current one already peaked.

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by Rockets June 30, 01:05PM

thebestnameshavegone Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You need to start somewhere though.
>
> And unfortunately, there is an air quality crisis
> in London, and there are too many car journeys.
>
> Long consultations and hand-wringing aren't the
> way forward - better infrastructure comes from
> many, many small things over time with additive
> effect rather than massive initiatives that happen
> all at once.
>
> So, you close some junctions, install some lanes,
> drop some kerbs, and you keep doing it. It's
> deeply unsexy in terms of what you actually have
> to do. And people will moan about it, as they do
> all over the world. And yes, people will be
> unhappy as it's the status quo being changed, and
> people are averse to the status quo changing.
>
> What you have in this area particularly is
> highly-mobilised, university educated people who
> are very wedded to their cars, so not
> surprisingly, they are moaning about it loudly.


Is being highly-mobilised and university educated something to be ashamed of? Should we overlook the concerns of that group to favour others? I think the approach taken by the council looks to many like something being driven by political ideology to attack the people in "leafy Dulwich" and when you look at the hap-hazard nature of their plans, the lack of any support for Lordship Lane you can see why this narrative gets significant resonance.

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by slarti b June 30, 01:09PM

thebestnameshavegone Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What you have in this area particularly is highly-mobilised, university educated people who are very wedded
> to their cars

Looking at travel to work stats (2011 census), which comprise most of the problems that OHS is trying to solve, the vast majority of those living in Dulwich Village ward do NOT travel by car to work, in fact only 12% do. This slighty higher than Soutwark as a whole (8%) but reflects SOuthwarks location at the edge of the Borough with inferior public transport. Remember that much of Dulwich has low PTAL scores.

Edit to add that Dulwich Village at 11.9% is very similar to East Dulwich with 11.5% so please stop this demonising of Dulwich Village.

And these Village Ward figures are much lower than surrounding boroughs such as Greenwich 18%, Bromley 27%, Lewisham 14%, Croydon 24%.

These figures are 9 years old, but I suspect this proportion will have decreased even more, if you have more recent stats I would be interested to see them.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit was june 30, 01:29pm by slarti b.

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by rahrahrah June 30, 02:44PM

The assessment went like this. A small but vocal group living on Melbourne Grove petitioned councillors to close their road. A small but vocal group living near the junction of duulwich village / Court lane lobbied the council to close their road. The council responded to the loudest voices, with little reference to the wider area and seemingly no strategic plan.
I actually support both schemes believe it or not, as I have come to realise that Southwark only progress through small tactical interventions and thats better than nothing. But its far from how I would like this stuff to happen.

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by tiddles June 30, 03:43PM

Dulwich has been gridlocked all afternoon

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by rupert james June 30, 03:47PM

Unfortunately this seems to be the pattern everywhere in the borough regarding changes.

Areas that have attracted newbys decide this is what THEY want and small a group descend on the Cllrs and Southwark and the wider population has no idea these changes are taking place and more to the point the wider population have a living to earn and do not have the time to decide how the area should be at coffee mornings or social gatherings.

It is unfortunately how it is these days.

Most residents do not have a voice any more.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was june 30, 04:19pm by rupert james.

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by tiddles June 30, 04:06PM

I am stunned by the negative impact on the village - main roads jammed with cars taking the only route not that the obvious and more direct routes have been closed. I then came down east dulwich grove which was queuing back to tell grove ? Aha another route shut. I feel sorry for the shops (and the residents in the main roads) as they will have great difficulty getting to and from their houses by car. Crikey what a cock up (tho most of us spotted that beforehand)

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by heartblock June 30, 04:14PM

Its great that those residents hit by austerity and poor transport links, working in shift patterns and mainly from the BAME community in Dulwich Village and Melbourne Grove now have less traffic and cleaner air...while us wealthy lot, living in small flats with no gardens on other streets have more traffic....hang on.....
I support healthier streets, cycle lanes etc. But..

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