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My son loves the Transport for London museum in Covent Garden. There is a little play area in the downstairs level and it has a little cafe next to a play train set (by cafe I mean juice boxes and sandwiches with a few tables and chairs). There is a nice regular cafe upstairs but it doesn't have a play area, and lots of tourists. You can easily kill a couple of hours there. And be warned, you have to exit through an excellent gift shop with LOADS of toy vehicles.

Gwod I felt exactly the same way. It shouldn't be like that.

I think that card shop chain on Rye Lane does them, Clinton's I think it's called?

Yes I do know about the heat accidents. Awful. My son is so fast and unpredictable that I used to have nightmares of somebody leaving the big gate open at Goose Green playground (happens all the time, grrrrr)and my son escaping and running into the road. Came too close a couple of times. But accidents due to human error are not quite the same as just not knowing what the risks are and doing something you would think twice about had you known better. I confess to being a bit more paranoid than I probably should. Things happen to even the most careful parent. But like I said earlier, I just couldn't live with myself if something stupid and preventable ever happened to my son. The trick is to be as safe as possible without driving yourself crazy! :)

I think it does depend a lot on what you are used to. I can't comment on the American model because it's so confusing, but in Canada midwives are independent and very expensive, and there are not many birthing options. Some people do have home births but they are quite rare, and there are a few birthing centres (again quite expensive) so most people have hospital births. You are completely under the care of your GP until mid way through your pregnancy and then signed on with an OB/GYN who will also deliver your baby (or someone in their rotation of about 5 or 6 will). The home birth seems so scary because we are not used to viewing midwives as trained professionals as compared to an OB/GYN (I don't agree, that's just the common view). I think the story might be sort of the same in the US (although Canada's socialized health care system does change the comparison). Anyway when I moved here I was a bit shocked that pregnant women see midwives and not doctors, and home birth seems as typical as hospital births. But I do see that it was just a lack of perspective and see a lot of benefit to this system. I think it's fantastic that women have so many options!

I should read more carefully! :-$ edited to add: it wouldn't be the worst thing to at least give new parents this information so they can be more careful, re car seats, slings or any potential risk that might not seem obvious...... I hate to be paranoid but I just can't help but think that three babies here, ten babies there, these are all the babies of mothers like any of us that might have done things differently had they known and an horrific price to pay........ how does one ever get over knowing that it could have been prevented? I shudder.......

Actually just the study was in Quebec, at McGill University. I believe it covered the country (could be wrong). Funny enough my first reaction was that Quebecois were the last of the die-hard smokers at that time and wondered if that was a factor. But it looks like New Zealand did a similar study with similar stats. But interesting point because the effect of that research is that we were given guidelines about car seat safety (the newborn bucket type) when my son was born and were specifically warned to limit the amount of time the baby spent in the car seat, and warned against things like leaving them to sleep etc.. Which goes to show that once aware of these issues an active government can work towards prevention. I would have never thought of it, and in fact a number of people (of a different generation) advised me leave my son to sleep in it at night. I assume they did a comaparative risk assessment between risk of using a car seat and not using one. Fuschia Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Without going into the stats in detail, young > babies in seats seem to suffer their share of > unexplained deaths! > > http://kids-safety-products.suite101.com/article.c > fm/small_babies_in_infant_car_seats_safety_risks > http://adc.bmj.com/content/93/5/384.abstract - 10 > unexplained deaths in 9 years, just in Quebec!

The slings were recalled because three babies died last year. The Canadian recall was not because of legal action; the legal system is nothing like that of the US. The Canadian government will automatically recall any item resulting in a baby or child death and will only allow the item back on the market when it is satisfied that it meets all safety standards. Also if you think about it a lot of these accidents are hard to foresee, but once the company knows about it there's no way it should be available to the public without fixing the problem. The mothers were normal. The babies were normal. The flaw must be in the design of the sling and should be examined, and new mothers should have knowledge of these issues. At the very least know before you buy it and agree to take the chance. Canada has also recently banned cots with side rails that move up and down...... there have been (rare) suffocations. If a company is in the business of supplying baby items than I support laws that force these companies to ensure their product is safe. The Maclaren case is a good example....... Freak accidents do happen but that's little consolation to these poor mothers (they were just doing their shopping, taking older kids to the park etc. with baby in the sling, so typical and every day. Can't imagine).

Sounds great! edited to add: Gwen the breast feeding Nazi was in Canada, not here. Just in case some poor local midwife named Gwen thinks I'm talking about her........ :))

I have to admit that I didn't love the hands on thing........ I had a c-section as well and I felt a bit "manhandled" already, so when these women out of nowhere kept mauling my breasts I just seriously needed them to back off and they didn't. Part of me has always wondered if my negative experiences with this had at least some role in my breast feeding struggles later..... I felt really violated by "Gwen the breast feeding Nazi" (my name for her, oh the trauma). littleEdfamily is right about keeping it light though. The whole issue is BIG to a new hormonal mum that in my experience I would never have signed up for anything that I thought would just make me feel worse..... again maybe explains the struggles. If just one person had said "well give it a shot and if it doesn't work out then that's okay too, not the end of the world" things might have gone better. I loooooove the idea of chatting with someone who has been in your shoes, that's what mums need. I was never happier than when somebody just understood me. Validation I guess, isn't it?

If you do a few simple google searches, it is evident that ethnicity is a large component of the program and it's original goals, I didn't invent the issue and I certainly didn't make it about race. Here's an interesting document: National Evaluation of Sure Start 2006 It's titled "Black and Minority Ethnic Families and Sure Start: Findings from Local Evaluation Reports, When I say that the Peckham Sure Start program appears to be used by more shall we say "non-ethnically diverse" parents than they perhaps had in mind I am not being narrow minded or racist. I am merely commenting on the fact that if that is the government's goal than by those measures that particular centre is failing. My original point was that the program in itself is a good and in many areas essential social tool and if they actually believe the roles of Sure Start to be more along the lines of those in Smiler's document then I don't see why children who are not classically deprived or of the targeted ethnicity (whatever that is) should be denied access to these programs.

Speaking of generalizations, how are you so sure about MY ethnicity? edited to add..... Do you know what box I tick off on forms? Do you know what my son's status is in his government issued "red book" , or on forms for Sure Start? We're "OTHER". That's right, we are of so little consequence in this "diverse and multicultural wonderland" that we don't even have a box to tick! So before you get on your soap box next time, perhaps you could examine your own prejudices and assumptions before you point fingers. What are YOU teaching YOUR children?

I've been to Leapers. I've talked to moms. And I've read this forum. I have never pretended that my generalizations were statistically valid, just an observation from someone who is culturally an outsider and is observing. I'm parroting the same conversation I've heard over and over......... Not sure how grandparents who are not so near can be helpful. Mine are several thousand miles away (and many time zones behind) and I need all the help I can get. The people I have met that fall into the "varying diversity" group you mention actually do seem to have large extended families close by. And yes most are very middle class. I have not lived in the UK long enough to understand or comment on race OR class politics so won't be dragged into that, sorry.

I think it depends on where it is. This particular area is heaving with moms looking for advice, help, support, and as someone mentioned on a previous thread, in parts of London that just happens to be white middle class women who don't have family near. If it not is running efficiently than they need to work on that rather than throw the whole baby out with the bath water. I have seen it in action in smaller towns, however, and it really can be a hub of activity for the "targeted" groups. Very young moms is a group I've noticed to be particularly involved, and they most certainly need the support. I think it is an important program, for everyone, and after a few years it could become a really integral part of health/social network here. It needs more time to grow into what it could be; I recently read that the real benefits will be more obvious around 2020 when the babies have grown into young adults. I don't know how investing in children became optional; at our house I don't get to skip a few meals for junior because I need new tires.......

Oh how I love that optimism, I myself once had it. I was known to make statements such as "maybe I'll get knocked up and take a year off" or "I'll get to that after the baby comes". !!!!!!!!!!!! And my friends won't let me forget it. As it turned out, I didn't sleep, ever, at all, the first year and not only did I not get anything done that year my house completely fell apart! I had no idea.......... I liked the article though. I'm no earth mama but have spent a ridiculous amount of time paying attention to the little details for my son, and I'm sure 90% of it was for my own need. Did I really need to farm source organic veg and make all of his food myself? Doubt it! I won't get THOSE hours back! I don't think I have it in me to be all "French" about motherhood but I'll bet the truth lies somewhere in the middle. We would probably be a lot happier if we didn't feel guilty about a glass of wine in the afternoon or the fag we snuck at the back of the garden. Of course the pregnant ones are not so good, no debate there.

My son seems to be getting up at 5:30 a lot lately. If it means he gets up at 4:30 there will be hell to pay I tell you! Note: I do believe there is a point where it no longer makes a freakin difference.

:))(tu)

I've always loved that poem....... funny enough it's been rattling around in my head a lot these days (is that healthy?) I'll blame it on my parents. :))

I think I was so stunned by how surreal it all felt that if they had shouted "it's a lamp" I would have thought "um, okay!" We didn't want to know either, but have to admit that once we did have a boy I quickly grew annoyed by all of the beige baby clothes we had (blah).

I understand your reasoning about the gate, we felt that way too. However as previously mentioned, you can leave the gate open for supervised practice but these little ones are fast and it only takes a second of distraction for them to tumble down and really get hurt. I also found it gave my son a bit of independence to toodle around upstairs when the gate was locked and I was just nearby. I think we took it off again around 18 months when we were confident that he had good stair instinct. But then I have a boy who tended to dive head first off of everything and the gate was probably to calm my poor nerves!

Okay but if you ignore the shiny blue skintight spandex and turn the volume off I think you will see some potential....... Apparently he's some sort of Olympic hero in Iceland. I'm just saying. Have also been watching a disproportionate amount of Mr. Tumbles this weekend and still think he'd make an excellent....... babysitter/brother/neighbor/husband's best pal

Sid (or is he Andy?) is from Peckham. Read a nice interview about him somewhere.

I wish I was taught to call it my precious flower :). Maybe I would have made a few better choices in my twenties!

Oh I absolutely agree with your entire post Ondine.

That video is beautiful; I've always been curious about what's behind the gate. However, that vacation wouldn't exactly match that travel brochure would it? When we moved here from overseas we had an agent looking for rentals for us in "East Dulwich". Names and postal codes meant nothing to me and so thought nothing of finding a house in SE 15, in Peckham (there is a special place in hell for estate agents!) Anyway, yes I have grown to appreciate the depth and complexity of Peckham and there are areas that are lovely, some nicer than ED in fact, but let's call it what it is..... You can imagine my *gulp* surprise when I went to check out my new high street and found Rye Lane. Now, I get a kick out of it as much as the next person and I have a soft spot for all it represents....... the grace and warts of humanity....... BUT it takes a bit of getting used to.