mockney piers

The upward trend is of course irrefutable. Of the black death estimates vary but the lowest I've seen is 25% of world population. The highest about 60%. The latter was certainly true of parts of Europe. While strictly speaking a statistical blip in the short term that really was an enourmous number of people even at the lowest bound, the economic, social and politiCal upheavels were enourmous te closest we've come in the modern age would be the second world war (similar numbers dead though obviously a much much smaller percentage). It's not a huge stretch to theorise that their may have been climactic impacts if we take it that preindustrial activity can have an impact). This is of course a minor aside on the whole debate but I found an interesting one nonetheless.

Read the comments of this article for all the worst aspects of the debate about the debate. Also a pretty good indication about how damaging politicians lies are regardig something that actually Does matter. http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/climate-change/sunspots-do-not-cause-climate-change-say-scientists-1839867.html

1 in 3 people killed is hardly a relatively minor fluctuation now is it and the cooling period lasted from 1300s to the 1800s so quite an impact. It's a relatively young theory so plenty of testing to be done on it.

Aah i see that what I was referring to is called the little ice age apparetly and does coincide with the black death in the 24th century apparently ending the warmer period that preceded it. That does seem to tie both in to anthropogenic influences though. I also agree that there should be debate. Science is by definition so. The whole point of open publishing and peer review is to help eliminate mans worse tendencies to suppress data or ignore contradictions. Individuals may do this but science as a whole will progress openly. All things like previous changes are investigated by scientists and continue to be debated. Some sceptics fall into this category. The problem wih deniers is they don't really debate. They are like conspiracy theorists. They use any level of uncertaintly is proof to support their own theory without backing up their own theories with anything concrete. It's always about absence of proof rather than explantion of evidence with them. Instead of trying to work out why there was a mini ice age they'll say that a previous climate change is proof that it just happens and current changes are the same. Any level of scientific debate becomes just another theory or even worth another belief attempting to imply that theories based on no evidence or previous theories found to have been faulty have equal validity. Have you tried arguing with anyone who uses the phrase false flag? It's a pretty pointless task. If deniers (rather than rigorous sceptics) applied peer reviewed scientific rigour then people might be more willing to engage, but they don't and they use disingenuous tactics to supress debate, usually in the name of keeping it open.

There's a pretty good theory recently published the the medieval cooling period was actually due to the black death killing half the population of the world and all the farmland left flow and rclaimed by woodland and forest locked up carbon previously produced by agriculture (a much less significant impact than industry but still significant) with ensuing global cooling. Again yes the world does gomthrouhj fluctuations but nothin has been seen like this and though muh of the detail and the predicitions of degrees of change and effects and rates may differ, the vastly overwhelming body of scientific investigaion points to man as the cause. Deniers always have political economic or just plain bog standard self interest as their primary motive. But as Sean points out, EVEN if the science does turn out to be wrong, only long term benefits can come from becoming more sensible about using up natural resources and switching to renewable energies. The alternative of the science being right and out doing nothing will be a stain on our generation. Many others may have contributed to carbon production but we were te first to have the opportunity to do something about it. It was only a few years ago any sort of environmentalist was dismissed as a tree hugging hippy. Now that the comcensus is that things are changing for the worse and it's out fault those who put their heads in the sand or those who don't care don't like it. Thing is it's an understandable position. Noone would happily take holidays if he hotels had killed the previous inhabitants to make way, I'm sure most would boycott a shampoo if the factory poisoned the water around them and killed people of willy-nilly, deniers aren't evil people they just don't want to make the connect between our activites and the suffering of people. Non deniers do make the connct but still mostly take too many holidays, upgrade their mobile phones every year and own 5 flat screen tvs to replace their perfectly good CRT ones. Most of us are just as bad but accept that we do need to change as long as I don't have to use those awful lightbulbs darling. Like the flat earthers it's fine to have a differing pointof view, but I'm not going to be consulting them about getting a sattelite in orbit or getting my factories raw materials shipped in from the other side of the world am I. Or like the daily mash said, if you're coughing up blood don't take some arnica, formgods sake get yourself to a decent oncologist.

I'm not surewhoa useful it is saying 'we are but a blip in astronomical scales'. err yes. And yeah another full on ice age is due in about 80,000 years with all of our cities buried under ice. Rigggght, but effectively so what. But we are having an affect in upon our fellow men in the preventable short term. And surely it is a moral responsibility to try and so something about that.

Eh? I think my point was that people will go "they're lying about a, therefore b is also a lie" I do feel guilty ever time I put a kettle on and that's adit should be. I do have energy efficien light bulbs even if try pole out over the lampshade but I'm nit even beginning to do nearly enough. I'm pretty sure I've never been a denier.

This is precisely why I keep telling people that the lies this government have told have been so deeply damaging. Because now everyone greats everything they say with the same suspicion and distrust. Frankly I don't think governments have anything to gain from doing anything about climate change as it will pertty much all involve sacrifice. That which they are doing, though not enough, is actually for the right reason (even a stopped flock tells the right time twice a day). Buy EDOldie has an incredibly valid point that they can't help but lie and spin, they're like the scorpion crossing the river, they lie because they are new labour. So instead of saying a new rnway is all about jobs and tax dollars they claim that ots somehow environmental, that (and I quote from some new labour twit on the today programme the other morning) 'we will hit or targets because electric cars and trains will travel without producing carbon'. Ok mate, you're either a bad and manipulative liar or are stupid, you choose. Bad politics shouldn't make us ignore what's happening just because it makes us feel guilty, or because it gives us an easy get out. As EDOldie quotes, the truth (or reality) will always tell.

Lots of good ones there. A couple more: Rutger's 'just moments in time' speech atthe end of Bladerunner, getting goose bumps just thinking about it. The attack on the bridge in The Good the Bad and the Ugly, how even our hardened antiheroes are moved by the senselessness of war. Most scenes in Dr Strangelove, but those wih George Segal's paranoid general on balance are winners.

Sheer genuius. Thanks Charlie big merry crimbo to you too

'your' eek. Ex sub if I'm being honest :) so, importantly, after stevenage's thrashing of old rivals Kiddie, can we finally go up?

But to be serious, like y'man I'm struggling to see any point being made. Oil company gets contract in oil rich client state? Uh huh. Err soldiers died for dubious politics? Tick. None of this is a secret is it. Far and away the most interesting thing to come out of Iraq was seeing how the US army, after such disastrous start at occupation learned how to win it's war, which involved jaw jaw. Expect much the same to be true of the latest 'surge' in Afghanistan. Then we can be wowed by someone pointing out 'BP get gas contract' or somesuch and we can all go 'gosh, I thought it was about democracy'. Noones fooled anymore though are they.

Wazzock, lovely. Hardly drawing room material but always up for retro insults.

Wow royal Dutch shell plc in 'a bit Dutch' shock? I hope you have interesting things to say about bears and woods next ;-)

These days? Shell were a Dutch company that's more or less Britisish as much as nationality means anythin to a mulinational like that. Iraq in about oil shock.

'mercys' "keanos's" sub editor chagrin

This has been looming for a while. Genuine shame, a good lad and a real talent, agree he'd have been an asset to the England set up, strength and skill. Sad for him and for the sport.

Pity the man who lives in Letchworth. Madrid Letchworth Earthsea Middle Earth Worthing East Dulwich Camberwell

True enough Simon. Depressing numbers of evil Chelsea shirts in East London and Essex (never on match day though)

Of course of course, but I bet they impress the neighbours don't they, eh don't they just; when you know full well some polystyrene cups and string would do the job just as well. I work in government, I've an old Terminal on a VAX9000 and greatful for it.

"I have some studio monitors, which are (relatively) inexpensive at ?1000" oh my. I think no more needs to be said. Do you? Off to the naughty step *Bob*

Just checked answers for the two I didn't get in last private eye. Kicking myself on both. One who makes no.2 without one is a judas (8) answer to number 2 was 'sacred cow' as numbers normally refer to other answers. Nut not in this case. Ooooooh no!!!!

So the argument is that travelling to Britain is bad for your health? They should have stayed clear of those deep fried mars bars.

Yep, that's pretty much perfect.

If by 'boshed a wedge' you mean less than the cost of a maclaren puschair over the past ten years then yes I have. Well done. How's that feeling of superiority goin with you, making you feel better about yourself? Enjoying getting a rise *tee hee chuckles into hand see what i did there I'm soooooo clever* so to speak? That's good. Good for you, seriously, well done. Edited to say some moods are better than others. Some moods' mothers etc...