mockney piers

"If we believe in Darwin" I think the 'in' needs dropping there. I'm pretty certain he existed. ;-)

I think you missed the point there TLS. The Beatles had already been proffered, and *Bob* was asking "what's the point of doing that?". I grew up in a beatles household (more swapshop than tiswas sadly) and love alot of their stuff. But their output was far from flawless, especially much of their swansong period I actually can't stand. But *Bob*'s right, what's the point of coming out with they're overrated when Lennon/McCartney are almost universally held by songwriters to be the songwriters' songwriters. ps I loved that bit in the prog docu when Cook from the Sex Pistols comes up to Phil Collins and whispers to him how much he loved his drumming in Genesis.

From WHTID

I got some very good duck breasts in the Butchers on Rosendale rd the other day. Plus some great quality Lamb's kidneys (about 40p each) with which I knocked up some fantastic devilled kidneys. Friendly, and no queue at all!!!

I've no issue with the place and generally found it equivalent or cheaper than Sainsbury's with far bette quality produce. FOr crimbo I got my mum to bring me a goose from the countryside...queue free ;)

Please don't think I'm anti Israel by the way. I just hate power being abused. I felt the same about Russia, engineering a situation with poor little Georgia in order to be able to flex military muscles in an exercise of sabre rattling in NATO's direction. Shakashvili (you try and spell it) was stupid to believe his little state was more powerful than it was and that NATO's reach would extend that far. He was stupid to rise to the bait but the provocation was strong as was his hubris. That doesn't make what Russia did right, but of course it doesn't mean it was entirely wrong either, it has spheres of interest like any other country (nothing ever being simple). Likewise of course Israel has absolutely every right to security and self defence, but it's coming up to 42 years of occupation, and imperialism was supposed to be a thing of the past. (idealistic idiot alert!!!)

Thank the lordy chimps haven't mastered the internet yet else I'm pretty Chimp Haven wouldn't be very SFW...well, not if you're a chimp at any rate.

Gods, Pixies, Leprechauns.... ;-)

Herein lies Israel's greatest weapon. Blame the Palestinians. No offer of a settlement on pre '67 borders has ever been offered, and personally I think a genuine offer of that would be acceptable to the vast majority. The Oslo peace accords were a sham aimed at creating a client, not an independent state. They didn't deal with the settlements (in fact more were built), they didn't deal with East Jerusalem, and the vague timetable of withdrawal with it's impenetrable categorisations of military areas was entirely open-ended and Sharon didn't even go through with stage 1 (I doubt he ever had any intention of walking down that 'roadmap'). So meanwhile millions live in abject poverty having to undergo humiliating control day in day out and the bombs continue to fall and bullets fly creating a constant stream of radicalised youth, justifying the permanent maintenance of occupation everytime a sentry post is attacked or a home-made rocket flies. It was Israel that broke this cease fire with yet another targeted assassination (how mundane is extrajudicial execution these days, the British government got inot all sorts of trouble for killing IRA operatives in Gibraltar back in the days when due process was valued) and Hamas duly delivered the desired response, resumption of rockets, in turn justifying this incursion. Like I say, someone has to break the cycle and it is simply not within the Palestinians power to do so.

Very fair points Jeremy, though I was wondering if it was pre-human. Chimps for instance have strong social bonds, I wonder if this may be influenced by this trait, in which case Huguenot's question becomes interesting, do chimps go to heaven? Err, not that a genetic propensity to spirituality (or a specific release of chemicals to certain parts of the brain as it's otherwise known) equates to the actual existence of a God of course ;-))

"The telling analogy with Northern Ireland is that the war effectively ended when the Republican political and military leadership accepted that they could never win it" Close, but not quite. Political feelers were put out before this, and secret negotiations started in the mid 70s. A military stalemate helped persuade the majority of the paramilitary leadership that a negotiated settlement was an inevitability, but we're now talking the mid 80s. This is 5 years before IRA strategy hit it's peak of effectiveness when it demonstrated that a military victory was not possible to the British government and were able to lob dud mortars on to Heathrow runways or bomb infrastructure targets at will. Notably (Hamas take note) that they did attempt to do this with minimal loss of life having realised that murder is counterproductive, particularly with the backlash post Warrington, killing children being too much even for the noraid contributors in the States*. So it wasn't until the mid 90s that the British government realised that it had to act to end the war. It's always beholden on those with the power to end the war if those without do not choose to surrender. In NI Britain had to commit to the peace process as well as the IRA; Major tried but was blackmailed by the Unionists for his slim majority and subsequently Blair with his solid mandate moved it forward more credit to him (though not for alot else ;-)). So both sides need to realise victory is impossible and work to end the war. Us pinkos address Israel because the Palestinians have long been open to negotiated settlements, Arafat, as I said, even essentially selling 'his' people down the river for scraps in a bid for peace (It's no coincidence that Fatah lost the support of the people, those who vote for them now (not that a vote counts for much when your government has to be accepted by your neighbour if you want to avoid collective punishment for voting incorrectly) do so as the main viable alternative to the Islamists. Israel knows it cannot win, but has chosen permanent occupation; for the powers that be attempting to minimise the damage that low grade insurgency can inflict, using walls, checkpoints and disproportionate collective punishment has been deemed an acceptable means to maintain the status quo. That's why I get so angry about this, becuase there's no interest in peace OR a viable Palestinian state from the Israeli side, because compromise would involve letting go too many things they are not prepared to do. As the original article said "they have chosen land over peace". *this is a pre 9/11 world. Pre 9/11 Israel went to great lengths to avoid civilain casualties (less so in Lebanon interstingly, but heh). Post 9/11 mere mention of the word terrorist will provoke a bloodlust response in the majority in the States, hence why Sharon was able to usher in the new era where casualties mattered less, but the man was brutishly cynical to put it politely).

Sean, our venn diagram is basically a circle with a tiny Half Man Half Biscuit shaped dot on it's edge!!

A propensity to spirituality is apparently a genetic trait which suggests that it goes right back to something and clearly serves some purpose? Do domesticated animals think we actually are gods then? (cats excluded, and in the case of Ancient Egyptians turned 180 degrees)

great video Sean. Weirdly shades of Money for Nothing in it (the video no the song) though obviously made on something better than Acorn Archimedes!! Ooh the Auteurs, one of those bands I'd meant to investigate more thoroughly, now my chance.

I like it, apparently a LEi is "any series of objects strung together with the intent to be worn"? Make of that what you will ;-)

Ha ha, ouch indeed!!!! Great name by the way Alan. Or should I call you bra?

yeah, but that bit with that dove at the end...ouch. (otherwise an entertaining film, granted)

But yes, if you mean we'd both like a cease fire and a genuine settlement, then we are indeed in agreement. Israelis would be wise to read the short history of Outremer and the hazards of refusing to compromise, nay continuing to commit atrocities when you country is surrounded by hostility. Perhaps they would be more inclined to avoid the hawks and the hardliners if they understood this. Smart bombs ran out in the first day of the Lebanon campaign, and were duly replaced by the US. With US hegemonic concerns moving eastwards rather than the middle east Israel must know strong-arming is not a wise long term strategy. It's so much harder to speak and find middle ground and commit to genuine compromise, but it's the best for everyone. With two workable legitimate states, trade, security, jobs and peace will flourish and the language of walls, bombs, and reprisals will fade into history. The analogy with Northern Ireland works here too you know.

The withdrawal from Gaza was nothing to do with making a workable Palestinian state. Israel was militarily defeated there (like the Brits in Basra); it was about allowing the work of the wall to continue. Please don't dress it up as some magnanimous gesture. Plus Hamas suicide attacks were overwhelmingly against military targets, I think you mistake them with the Al Aqsa brigades and Islmaic Jihad. V2s wiped out whole streets as did car bombs, truck bombs took out city centres. Iconography or no it's an invalid comparison.

There has been no military withdrawal from the West Bank, I don't know what newspapers you're reading, and completely surrounding Gaza and turning it into a prison (thanks in no small part to an acquiescent Egypt) isn't exactly withdrawal is it. So I'm failing to see your compromise. Where the right to return or compensation, where the proposed settlement of dual control of Jerusalem, where the knocking down of illegal land-grabbing walls, where the rights of west bank civilians to their own water, where the removals of illegal settlements in occupied territory? as for: "Now who is being disingenuous? Are you trying to suggest that the allies went to war to save Jews? I rather hope not or we've been reading different history books for the past 60 years." you're simply putting words into my mouth. I'm saying the international community may have enormous inertia, but it acts, most particularly when self-interest is involved, I'd expect better from you than to twist my words. And of course it's a valid comparison. Why the hell is a missile somehow intrinsically worse?!?!? Qassams put a 3 ft hole int the side of a domestic house and have killed 20 in 8 years. IRA bombs killed hundreds even thousands, destroyed billions of pounds worth of property, brought entire cities to a standstill and had a greater psychological hold over the six counties and the mainland than Hamas can even dream of.

That's a rather confused essay. Saying the world is incapable of acting, and if jews would have to depend on that there would be no israel. Simplistic and disingenuous. The world acting brought an end to the Nazis at great cost. The world doing its more usual torpor allowed the Zionists (sic) to carve out their own state (rightly or wrongly I don't care, I'm just pointing out the flaws in the argument). To follow that up with is even worse. The Palestinians want peace with honour, though Arafat in the end gave up on even that for the few scraps Israel promised but had no intention of delivering. Hezbollah and Hamas are movements borne of brutal occupation pure and simple. They are organisations with political goals. I don't doubt for a minute that they are anti-semitic, but to claim they kill out of racial hatred is propoganda, as both have been canny practitioners of the dual military/political fronts. They have never been, are in no position to, and have no intention of driving the jews into the sea, they look for a reasonable settlement. Israeli political leaders may want to look up the word compromise in their dictionaries, amazingly it isn't defined as having everything your own way. Sharon's visit to the temple mount / al aqsa and his post 9/11 pronouncements regarding terror define the modern era of Israeli policy. I watched those with profound sadness in 2001 suddenly realising the intifada was over and bloodshed would mark the way of things until Sharon was out (or dead..eventually) and Bush gone. Sadly I don't see anything changing even with Obama in...like I say depressing. Despite claims of victory in the recent spat in Lebanon (and be assured Hezbollah delivered a bloody nose to the IDF) it is significant that Hezbollah have ermained rather quiet in recent days, showing that a strategy of disproportionate response may be more effective than we would care to admit. Cromwell in Ireland is a fairly reasonable comparison here. And that's even worse D_C, no they don't, though god knows there's little enough room to fire it from anywhere else in Gaza, and the IDF doesn't have to shell civilian areas (that's artillery with little more accuracy than a qassam) or the air force drop 1000lb bombs on civilian buildings (you didn't see the air force dropping bombs on South Armagh, Derry or even Dublin when the guts were being ripped out of our cities by IRA bombs did you?). No one has to do anything, but that's the equivalent of the rapist blaming his victim for wearing a short skirt. I'm surprised at you reprinting such tosh.

Why the hell do you think I got out as fast as I could? Hang around in a town of 50,000?!?! I see the ones left behind, discussing the foibles of life in their small environment like chronic curtain twitchers, hanging around a small core of pubs, caring about the frequency of service to King's Cross and the lack of PCSOs on Eastcheap, the deforestation of Kennedy Gardens and the strange exotic black squirrels to be found in the parks.... oh... dear... god... what have I done?!?!?!

LOL!!!

I guess by the book (the dictionary not that book) I'm an agnostic. But it's not a cop out, it's more saying that if a higher power/intelligence/life form had a hand in the miracle and complexity of life (i find the universe less miraculous, maths seems to be getting to grips with that one, the rest is just physics and chemistry) then jolly well done, round of applause. But were that to be the case, (rather than life being a natural facet of the entropic process of the aforementioned maths and physics and chemistry) then frankly we are but bacteria in the petri dish, and who are we to claim our visions or write up our myths and traditions as diktats from above. So I'll live my life as best I can without the need for a Pascalian wager or to pick a particular religious poison thanks.

Arsenal want Upson back, perhaps for Bentdner (or however it spelt). TOrn, we need cash, and bendtner is a decent enough player who would suit the team, especially if Etherington goes to Stoke (he'll be sorely missed even if he is a tad erratic at the mo), but Upson is absolutely at the core of our new found defensive solidity, and if he stays will almost certainly get player of the season.