Sue

louisiana Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- most middle class parents don't > kill their own children, on holiday or at any > other time. xxxxxxxx I never suggested anybody had killed anybody. I suggested there could have been an accident whilst a small child was left unattended. And DJKQ, the apartment was left unlocked.

Statistically, the vast majority of child disappearances are linked to the parents. A tiny percentage is due to abduction by a stranger.

R.I.P.

Great pics, Twirly! I nearly ran over a young fox a few days back - it ran across the road from Goose Green. Foxes have been making hideous noises in my back garden, but sadly unlike last year don't seem to be sleeping there :(

ImpetuousVrouw Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Was the door to the apartment unlocked? If so why > di the alleged abductor take the child out of the > window? xxxxxxx Just one of the many questions around this case. And why were the only fingerprints found on the window those of Kate McCann? And why did the parents claim that the shutters had been forced open, when in fact they hadn't been?

If anyone reading this needs help in the North Cross Road/Ulverscroft Road area, please PM me. I have a family get together tomorrow (assuming anyone can actually get to it ....) but will pick up your messages ASAP.

reggie Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > The scary thing about suspicion is that once that > thought is established then all manner of evidence > comes along to back up that suspicion. It was the > same with the 'dingo got my baby' case. Also the > Ozzie outback murder. Both cases had loads of > strange unanswered questions which will never be > properly explained. Both defendants were > unappealing, cold women. > Sue I think your anger at the parents is > increasing your suspicion. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx I've read quite a lot about the case, and my suspicion is based on what I've read which is based on the police files. ETA: If there was any evidence pointing towards an abduction, then that would alter things. I hope I'm open minded enough to take into account anything which contradicts my current view. Signing off now for the night .....

DJKillaQueen Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > To be fair it wasn't quite the mindless act you > describe. The villa was in clear sight of the > Tapas place Actually the relevant part of it wasn't and the parents collectively checked > on them periodically. There is only their word for when the checks were made, and they and their holiday pals "declined" to return to Portugal for a reconstruction of the night in question. Yes I agree leaving children > that young unsupervised is wreckless but all the > parents clearly thought their children were safe > (albiet wrongly so). Intent is a very important > consideration. Well clearly they thought there was no danger of a child choking, falling, wandering out of the unlocked apartment or anything else - and these are doctors. > > Certainly the evidence presented by the Inspector > you refer to seems compelling but there are very > good reasons why there has been no arrest or > prosecution of the McCanns. Yes, there are - there is insufficient evidence which would stand up in a Portuguese court The DNA evidence isn't > conclusive. This is a technical issue, but I understand that most of the markers matched Madeleine's and that in some countries this would have been sufficient in law. However I cannot follow all the scientific discussions about it, duh. Also given that both the McCanns are > Doctors, Cavadar is something they'll regularly > come into contact with. I understand that Gerry McCann's job does not involve contact with patients. Kate McCann was a part-time GP who I understand claimed to have come into direct contact with SIX!! (I think) bodies in the week (I think) before they went on holiday. When the cadaver dog alerted to Madeleine's cuddly toy (which incidentally I understand that Kate McCann washed when she found out the sniffer dogs were coming to Portugal) she apparently claimed that this was because she took it to work. She took her child's toy with her when she was going to see dead bodies??? I simply don't accept that > any parent finding their child injured, or dead, > would do anything but call an ambulance > (especially two parents who are doctors - even > though they'd have known full well if the child > was dead). Well it would depend on what they felt they needed to hide about the circumstances in which such a thing had happened. Even if Madeleine died in the apartment > after an accident, there is no evidence to say > that the McCanns were involved in any kind of > cover up. The Hire Car was after all a hire car > and explains why the DNA evidence taken from it > was so low and contained multiple markers. It > reminds me of the countless theories around the > death of JFK when all along it was one man who > pulled thrigger that day, and one man only. Lot's > of factors that can be put together in any number > of ways. I think it is necessary to look at all the indicative factors together. The dogs alerted to that hire car and to no other car, in the same way that they alerted only to the McCann's apartment. > > I think the McCanns are suffering enough for > having lost their child (esp if the truth is that > she died from an accident - and they have to live > with that forever). It will make no difference to > Madeleine if she is dead, whatever the truth is. > One thing is certain though. The McCanns didn't > leave their children in that apartment intending > to see one of them die that night. Pursuing some > vain hope of convicting them and putting yet two > more children at the mercy of the care system > seems pointless to me. If they had behaved differently then yes I would have agreed. Seeing them courting what seems to me to be dangerously close to celebrity status, seeing them smiling and laughing for the press on what would have been Madeleine's fourth birthday, seeing them planning events to mark, for example, the first anniversary of Madeleine's disappearance long beforehand, when they could not have known she would not be found, seeing them hiring lawyers as soon as she disappeared, many many other things - they do not cause me to have sympathy for them, I'm afraid. Sorry, maybe I'm just heartless, but my sympathies are all for the child.

Keef Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Well yeah, but when I said "wrong", I was thinking > along more sinister lines. Of that, there is no > proof. xxxxx If there was proof, they'd have been prosecuted. There is indicative (but not conclusive) evidence, plus evidence which is not admissible in a Portuguese court. For example permission has to be sought to monitor a phone in advance of the calls/texts. Because obviously nobody knew that a child was going to disappear, evidence from mobile phone messages which could otherwise have been used, cannot be. There is no evidence at all of an abduction. Chick, you say this thread is sick. I think it is sicker that two parents left three little children under four in a dark, unlocked, unfamiliar apartment in a foreign country while they went out on the piss with their friends. And not just once - night after night. I'm interested in finding out what happened, and why a lovely little girl (who was the same age as my oldest granddaughter is now) has disappeared. I recognise that nobody may ever know - apart from those directly involved, of course. But I remain hopeful that the truth will out eventually.

There were Shelter chuggers in Lordship Lane today in that sort of area, was he one of them? If so, you could complain to Shelter. Perhaps he'd come in out of the rain .....

Keef Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Equally, you seem to have decided out of hand, > that it's a nonsense. xxxx I'm assuming you're responding to Curmudgeon and not to me :))

paragon Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > > Sue - do you think they killed her? xxxxxxx No. And Sr Amaral is not saying that either. He is repeating information which is already in the public domain from the police files, and repeating what was the conclusion of the official investigation. My personal opinion, and I stress it's only that, having looked at what information is publicly available and appears to be credible (as opposed to many of the press reports) is that she probably died whilst left alone, probably from a fall onto a hard floor in the dark, and that if that did in fact happen then for whatever reason the parents somehow covered it up. Curmudgeon, you are living up to your name, I see. If you were a parent, and two highly trained and highly respected British sniffer dogs both independently alerted, one to blood and one to cadaver odour, at identical places in an apartment from where your child had gone missing and where nobody else had died, what would be your reaction? Mine would be absolute despair. Theirs was to immediately discredit the dogs. I'm interested in this case for various reasons, but I can fully understand other people not being, or thinking it's all old news. But please make constructive comments if you want to post.

Anyway, this is the bloody lounge isn't it! :))

:))

Lots of threads contain posts with links. How you can consider that a hijacking is beyond me. If you mean the link isn't working, it is for me. If you seriously think I've hijacked your thread, then of course I apologise, but you seem to be continuing the "hijack" yourself :))

Excuse me? How have I "hijacked" it? I made one VERY SHORT post - which is connected with the stated subject of the thread - and I would have left it there had Louisiana not asked me a question. I did say "as you were" - it is you who has posted again referring to my post, and hence continued what you seem to be saying shouldn't be on here! So please don't reply to this, or you will just be perpetuating the situation which you do not like!

No, I'm not quite sure what my point was either really :) Of course there's no new evidence! I read the Guardian on a Saturday and the Observer on a Sunday, otherwise I don't read newspapers. I'm not sure what your point is about what newspaper I read, but having looked into this case I don't trust any of the British newspapers, including the Guardian, to report it accurately. But the McCanns have all along in this case tried to discredit the Portuguese police, and the British press has consistently gone along with that, calling them - for example - "sardine munchers", "bumbling" etc. Xenophobic though it might be, in some quarters the fact that the British police were involved (and also incidentally a British dog handler plus two top British sniffer dogs) adds more credibility to the way in which the case was investigated. Sadly, although there is "indicative" evidence of parental involvement in this child's disappearance, plus evidence which is not permissible in a Portuguese court (for example mobile phone evidence for which permission to obtain it was not received in advance (grammar) - because nobody could know that a child would go missing) there is no conclusive evidence. Not at the moment, anyway. Which was why the case was shelved. There is, however, no evidence at all of an abduction having taken place, apart from one of the McCann's friends claiming to have seen a man carrying a child away from the apartment (and doing nothing about it, and telling nobody about it even when a search began). There appear to be so many flaws in this claim that it is hardly evidence. Anyway, apologies, bee in my bonnet, as you were :)

I've just started a thread about one recent leak (concerning the involvement of British police in the case of the disappearance of Madeleine McCann) in the lounge: The Truth of The Lie

I have been following this case almost from the beginning. In view of the recent WikiLeak about the involvement of the British police (which had previously been almost completely ignored by the press in this country, along with many other things about the case, as they preferred to diss the Portuguese investigation), I just want to share this link, which is an English translation of Goncalo Amaral's book. http://goncaloamaraltruthofthelie.blogspot.com/ The McCanns had succeeded in obtaining a temporary ban on sales of this book in Portugal (Sr Amaral is the senior Portuguese detective who led the original investigation). However this has now been overturned following a successful appeal. They are also continuing to pursue a libel case against Sr Amaral with the intention of making a great deal of money out of him. However in view of the Wikileak I doubt that this can now succeed. There are many many internet forums discussing the case, but one respected site is: http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/

ahoward3 Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > East Dulwich Mind is a rip-off. > Half of the clothes I have ever owned are from > charity shops, but this particular shop is > ridiculous and I've never known anything like it. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx I have to agree, they had a coat in there for forty quid the other day - nothing particularly special, if I recall. At least they seem to have reduced the price of books though, some of those were ridiculous as well. It's coming to something when you think that charity shop books are so expensive you might as well buy them new!

anapau Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- It turned out I had a punctured > lung. And to all of the many, many passers by who > just looked at me and walked on, shame on you. xxxxxxx What is wrong with people? I read of an old man in Salisbury who lay collapsed in the snow for hours while people just walked by and ignored him. Glad you got help anapau but sorry for your bad experience before it came :-S Those people who passed you by would be the first to have a rant if nobody stopped to help them, no doubt.

May have been lounged because the thread title doesn't immediately bring to mind a missing bike??

What did it say, I missed it?

Well done for all your hard work, and thanks for the spaces, that's much easier to read :)

Lucyd30 Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- please private > message me if you do find someone on Crystal > Palace Road area who needs a hand. xxxxxxx And please PM me for North Cross Road/Ulverscroft Road area