scor46

Pardon my naivete I know for a pub... It sits in a hamlet off the beaten track, two miles from the nearest sizeable settlement which in turn is ten miles from anywhere that might reasonably be described as civilisation. The public bar is rumoured to have a pool table and a jukebox, but I don't know of anyone who's ventured in that side since God was a boy. The lounge is dark and dingy, there's little choice of beer. Wadworth's 6X, Stella (from a can) or Natch cider (from a bottle). There'll be a house red if the landlord hasn't already drunk it. Any of these will likely be served in glassware that would benefit from a second pass through the glass washer if indeed they have one. They do not sell food. There is no jukebox, fruit machine, television or anything to suggest that the room has been altered in 100 years. There is a patina that could only have been created by so many smokers over that period of time. It is quiet enough at lunchtime, maybe two or three folk will be in and occasionally the landlord will add his wisdom as he opens his second bottle of wine (he is educated, ancient and autocratic). He opens at 7.30 in the evening and often as not the place is packed. Some folk will put their wellies on and walk 2 miles across open fields and a golf course, braving windy, wet November weather to get there. Why does this place work? Is it because people have to talk to each other for amusement because there are no distractions such as a telly? Or is it because he has something that one rarely sees these days: an open log fire that burns at all hours in all seasons and weathers? Surely it's not because his "watch stops working" now and then? Irene Bujman 8th March 2008

Ever wondered why you are paying over ?3 per pint in your local pub? Have you ever wondered why your local pub is always run down and in desperate need of a refurbishment and when it does have money spent on it just really is a general brush up. Have you noticed how many pubs have closed down or been boarded up, for sale or have already been turned into residential apartments. Two property companies own more than half of the pubs in this Country. Enterprise Inns & Punch Taverns, they are known in the industry as pubcos. Out of 57,000 pubs in the land nearly 20,000 are owned lock stock and barrel by just the two of them. The pubcos lease their pubs to the publicans and charge them a rent. The tenant is also legally bound to buy all beers, bottle or draught, direct from the pubco. This is called a tied lease agreement. 31,000 pubs in the country have this lease or tenancy agreement in place today. They cannot buy from any other supplier other than landlord if they do so they will be liable for huge fines or worse still, prison sentences. In essence the pubco's business model is simple. It rents a pub to a tenant. The lease has a full-repairing and full-insuring obligation on the tenant and it also generally has an upward only rent review stipulation. All Beers must be purchased from the pubco or from suppliers nominated by the pubco. The pubco is not a brewery and never sees a keg or a bottle of beer. The pubco does not own storage areas or warehouses as they act only as a middleman. The pubco buys beer cheaply, indeed near to cost. It then sells it to tenants at prices, which generate a very handsome margin for them. Essentially the whole process in done by just swapping invoices with the brewers. Pubcos pay far less than the open market price for the beer due to their purchasing power, which means they can attract bulk-buying discounts For the pubco this is a very effective and low risk business model. It is in a position of bargaining strength with both its suppliers and its customers. Cash generation is both strong and stable for the pubco, whilst risk is minimised. The two biggest pubcos entered the FTSE 100 less than 8years after being formed. So what?s really going on in your pub and how does it affect you? Plain and simply, the Great British Pub is selling beer at a loss. Even a ?3 plus a pint. Your local, your community pub even your high street pub is hanging on by a thread and is only just managing to keep the doors open because of the price they pay the pubco for their beer. Many have already been swallowed up by the illicit practices of the pubcos. Law does not govern the price the pubcos charge their tenants for beer so they can charge whatever price they want. For example; you can visit your local supermarket and pay one third of the price for a case of beer than the local pub pays their landlord for the same product. I buy beer in my pub from my pubco at about the same price that JD Wetherspoons sell it over the bar to it's customers. Almost 1300 pubs have closed down since 1st January 2008. That?s at least 1300 people who have lost their livelihoods, all of their savings and probably their homes as well. Bankrupt, embarrassed, sick with worry and absolutely flattened by the pubcos aggressive practices. Suicides, marriage break ups and nervous breakdowns are commonplace amongst publicans who eventually just give up the ghost. Yes its true turnover has decreased in pubs by almost 10% because of the smoking ban but this has only added to the problem it?s not the real cause. Pubcos, because of their greed have totally desecrated the whole pub Industry. They have hid behind walls of lies and deceit to the extent that many thousands of tenants have fallen by the wayside. At the heart of the problem there is romantic notion that if you buy a pub you can make a healthy profit. People take early retirement, use their redundancy money, borrow from the banks or use their life savings to buy a pub. In a very short space of time, they have lost the whole ?bloody? lot. Pubs dropping like flies, closing, shutting down, for sale or otherwise just empty and waiting for the inevitable. The average time a new tenant stays in any one pub is less than 15 months. The predictions are that over 10,000 pubs will close or change hands this year alone. And all the while the fat cats are getting fatter. One CEO of a pubco paid himself almost ?12million last year, the highest of any sector. The pub down the road selling beer at less than ?2 per pint is not to blame. (JDWetherspoons) They are good examples of how a pub business should be operated. They buy beer at a discounted rate from the brewers then pass these discounts on to their customers by selling correctly priced beer.(No middleman to take all the profits) These pubs are run well, they have regular investment ploughed back into them, their customers are happy and the shareholders are still making healthy profits. It?s a win, win situation. No middlemen, no lies, no deceit and no ?tied? tenants falling off the ladder by the bucket load. In 2004 the DTI Select committee opened up its doors and listened to both sides of the argument. Pubcos and tenants were invited to submit evidence challenging the ?tied? beer system in this Country. It was a massacre, a whitewash the real extent of the problem was hidden behind a mixed bag of lies, pontificating and a whole load of overpaid solicitors who?s only brief was to hide or disguise the true facts. Yes, the committee made recommendations, and they acknowledged that unless the pubcos changed their practices then they would look at the whole ?model? again. Four years later and guess what, absolutely nothing has changed. The pubcos have systematically ignored every recommendation that the select committee made. They have got bigger and stronger to the total detriment of the industry. The pub trade is at an all time low, its finally hit rock bottom. Look around, see the pubs that are closed. In London it doesn?t seem that bad but venture out to rural areas and visit the pub that once was the corner stone of the community. You can?t because its not there anymore. Closed, forgotten, shut down. The very building that brought together generations of people, friends and families has finally disappeared. And remember the publican? That much loved pillar of society. That respected jovial bar owner who never turned his back on anyone especially a soul in need. That very person that scores of people would visit for advice, help or just a shoulder to cry on. Well he?s disappeared as well a beaten and broken man. The Industry is at deaths door, the publicans know it, the Government knows it and the pubcos know it. All we the tenants want is a fairer deal. Why can?t the Great British pub be returned to their rightful owners? Why can?t it be handed back to the people who care about it and don?t just want to rape it of every last penny? I care and I want to make a difference. I?ve worked in this Industry for over 25 years and have seen the highs and lows. I?ve seen people who haven?t quite cut the mustard fall away, and I?ve seen people who have worked dam hard because they care, earn a decent honest living out of pubs. Now all I see is a one sided cartel monopolise the whole fabric of the pub system just to inflate their own share price and fill their pockets. The games up its time to make a change, I for one have had enough, its time to fight back. Without the pubcos, the middleman, you would be paying a dam sight less than ?3 per pint. If you have read and understand exactly what has happened to the pub Industry then what can you do? Start by acknowledging the problem. It would be good if you, the average perso understood the total disparity of the ?tied? pub system. We, the publicans, need support and we can have that by more and more people understanding what has happened to the pub in the past 20 years. Send me an email just to say that you understand. Even if you don?t agree then email me and tell me why. If you want to know more then email me. If you agree with me you could sign following petition: http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/Pubcos/ We want the Government, OFT or the select committee to once again look at the pubco model. We need names of people who understand and care about their pub to sign it. If the Government decides to bring the whole ?tied? pub model back to the debating table because public demand warrants it, then at least this time the public will have a much better understanding of the situation. I can?t promise anything, I can?t promise that we will win, I can?t promise that the pubcos will be knocked out of their ivory towers. But I ?can? promise you one thing, and I say this for every tenant who has lost their livelihood to the pubco bullies, feudal landlords who for too long now have just played the numbers game. For every tenant who is sitting here today on the brink of a total nervous breakdown I promise you this: We will be ready next time!! Want to know more? Then drop me an email Steve Corbett [email protected]

When you have finished reading and listening to the propaganda that is being spouted out about pub industry. I'm going to tell you the real reason why a pint generally is well over ?3.... But not now ive gotta do some work....

Check this out: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/topstories/2008/02/20/price-of-a-pint-of-beer-is-set-to-break-the-4-barrier-89520-20325121/

To play Dulwich during the week is ?40 during the winter they reduce it to ?30.

EDF golf day is a great idea. (come on Mark sort it out)or Muttley you can organise it> Just want to say that one the best courses to play that you dont have to be a member is Pedham Place. Its a little bit far out (just down the A2 where it hits the M25)Its a pay & play course ?20 a round or ?10 if you go after 1pm (I think)The course is fab and generally the grounds always dry(good natural drainage) Go play it boys and girls because a large corp will buy it one day because the layout is great and then you will have to pay fortunes to play it

on a scale of 1 to 10 its a safe 5.5

With a rent of circa ?40k p.a shouldnt think they will last long....

(tu)The George Canning will be open as usual(tu)

I rather sign a petition to get rid of Foxtons! That place is a eyesore and a total embarrassment to the Lane

Jason Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I run a local business and know how high the rent > is for that double unit that Nero occupies. > > If Nero shuts it is likely to remain empty. > Certainly no idependent could afford the massive > outgoings during their first year. > > Lets support Nero for the sake of the staff jobs > and not having an empty space. If you do object to > it just don't go in there Lordship Lane is dramatically changing. The multi-national chains are moving in and are prepared to pay the rents the smaller independents cant afford to operate, sell up or go out of business. The national operators are not put off by high rents its all about share price. If Nero?s closed down there will be a number of Nationals ready to take it whatever the rents. In the next 5-10 years we will see some more of the chains on the Lane, they will just buy adjacent shops and knock them into bigger ones. Rent value wont come into it.

Many people apply for planning retrospectively. Its almost the norm... There is more to this story than meets the eye!!

char1ie Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Goodbye Green and Blue. If the service had been > better the first time I went in I may have been in > again. As it is, one bad experience is enough to > convince me never to go back there. > > Celestial is a nice shop, very well stocked with > decent gear. And the staff are friendly. And they > do not have an attitude problem because you are > not familiar with all the bread they stock. > > Charlie Do you like any of the bars in the area Charlie? Beacuse you seem to whinge about quite a few of them. Maybe the bars are not the problem....

Mockney just bring your own beer... its cheaper for us!!!

There are a lot of good posts on this thread but apart from Mark I don?t think anyone has any idea what is really going on in the pub business. The original question was: If a bottle of Becks costs 49p in a supermarket what?s a fair price for a tied pub to be charging for the same? Remember overheads: rent, rates wages, light & heat maintenance and repair of the property, and the need to earn a living out of running it all. A ?fair? price to sell the bottle of Becks would take into account all parties concerned in the sale, from the brewer to the customer purchasing the bottle over the pub counter. As it?s a buisness the pub owner needs to make a profit or there is no point owning a pub. In my opinion a 10% profit margin is realistic (10% of net turnover) Easyjet 11% (profit% against turnover) JD Wetherspoons 7.3% (profit% against turnover) All bar One (Mitchells & Butler) 9% (profit% against turnover) Punch Taverns (Pubco) 16.4% (profit% against turnover) So factoring into the equation as a rule of thumb all average pub industry costs : Wages 25%, Rent 15% Repairs & Maintenance etc and a Pub net profit of 10% then the real price for a bootle of becks should be ?4.11. Using the same industry figures in a tied-pub: Stella ?5.10 a pint Kronenburg ?4.30 a pint Guiness ?4.68 a pint Fosters ?4.20 a pint I sell becks in my pub at ?3.00 a bottle, using the same figures above I make a ?2% loss selling becks. (Stella ?16%) Now lets look at who is making money out of the bottle of Becks: Tied-Pub -2% JD Wetherspoon 15% Phoenix / Plough 33% Pubco (Pub freeholders) 61% If the law changed tomorrow and I could buy Becks off the Brewer I could sell Becks at ?2.00 a bottle and still make a net 10% profit margin. Wetherspoons have got it right What does all of this mean? Pubcos own 80% off all the pubs in the UK and because of this the pub industry is in turmoil! Inflated beer prices, 15% of all pubs close down or change hands every year. The average time for a tenant to stay in a pub is 18 months, thousands and thousands of people have gone bankrupt or lost all of there savings because of the Pubco?s. Charlie, strategy has nothing to do with it because we are talking about percentages across the whole spectrum of pubs irespective of turnover.This pub industry is finished unless the law changes. I would be happy to sell Becks at ?2 but a fair price at this time is ?4.11 a bottle. Would my pub be full if I sold it at that price so that I could earn a living?????

The question was posted to find out what people think or really know about the ?Great British pub?? Why are the majority of pubs so expensive yet Wetherspoons can charge so much less than everyone else? This is not a pop at any pub or supermarket chain, it?s a real question.

If a bottle of Becks costs 49p in a supermarket what?s a fair price for a tied pub to be charging for the same? Remember overheads: rent, rates wages, light & heat maintenance and repair of the property, and the need to earn a living out of running it all?.

And it would be my pleasure to buy you both one. Its the George Canning 123 Grove Lane.

Come on Administrator... this is chatty!!! and also direct competition!! (However, i do love the place - Tip of the day -Splash out time - try the Yarra Yering Pinot Noir. Its the best new world Pinot I have ever tasted)

Greg & Highwood Barracks you have made my day by posting on the Ed forum. I did not realise that the High Wood Cadet Centre existed and I was fascinated to read the history of the events that took place on 15th September 1916. I am fully supportive of your ideas concerning the war memorial. I run a local pub and would be honoured to help in anyway to raise funds or peoples awareness. I would be happy to place a collection tin in the bar or just assist in spreading the word. Well Done

This is true... I was in the George Canning a couple of years ago and Duncan Goodhew was sitting at the table with 3 other people. I know Duncan to say hello to as he used to come in quite often for a cup of char. After a couple of minutes of small talk with 'me mate Duncan' and his American friends I shook hands with the big guy with the tash and he introduced himself as Mark. Anyway, Mark and I spent the next 20 minutes drinking Guinness and putting the world to rights... then the penny dropped! Mark, American, Big Guy, Big tash ?? 9 Olympic gold medals, 6 in 1968, 6 world records?. Mark Spitz!!! My new best pal Mark Spitz in the George Canning pub Camberwell! Who would have Adam and Eve?d it?? Come on Beat That!!! Anyway I?m available for autographs any night of the week at a cost of only a small glass of Sherry?????

Now come on gentleman-builder!! it couldnt have been Elvis..... Elvis doesnt like Chilli!!

Kirsten Imrie (Page 3 chick)is always knocking around on Champion Hill. She quite often comes in the Canning. She always brings her 2 pals with her as well!!!

where abouts exactly was the cinema? whats now in its place?

anyway.. back to the quiz on Tuesday night at the Canning 'still' the baest quiz in town!!