downsouth

As far as I'm aware none of us have access to the information that the Portugese police do. Even if we think it makes no sense they should be allowed to get on with their investigation which after this time must be coming to a close what with the recent DNA findings. Let's hope it isn't as it now seems however it is not an uncommon crime committed by parents be they working or middle class.

continued... More home ownership for all I say, I believe Boris Krusty the Clown for hire Johnston has already said 'good' tenants should be encouraged to get a stake in their property and I applaud that. What has caused societal break down? It is a bit more complicated than saying Thatcher. Personal responsiblity and family breakdown are the two biggest causes. The reasons behind them are plenty.

@ Asset - Do you not think you've over simplified the issue? Why is it whenever someone says right wing you hold up Thatcher to embody everything? She was not the first person to espouse right wing principles many of which are now part of the 'progressive centre'. I am not defending Mrs T - she was the Devil incarnate in my house when i was growing up but with hindsight and education it is quite clear she did have a positive effect alongside less positive outcomes in the UK. Home ownership, deregulation these are simple things that have had a big impact - Railways excepted!!

Good to hear!

It is the old right wing rhetoric but rich people provide jobs for poorer people who would not otherwise find gainful employment - Hoxton, Lordship Lane beong examples. You may not be 'rich' however to but in LL right now is anything from 300K upwards (for a flat) and such people have spare cash to spend on leisure and recreation hence the number of shops sustained on LL employing locals that would not survive for a month on Nunhead Lane, West Norwood High Street or Walworth Road. The key is social mobility. If children are educated and inspired to achieve they invariably will. But they should not think there is a safety net ready to surround them should they not wish to do so - see 80% of children I went to school with. We ahve had so many recent incomers to London and the UK who have found employment very easily and well paid at that. Can we not learn some lessons and stop hating the rich?

I actually think DC has done quite a good job in the round. SeanMacGabhann makes the point that he has to deal with some thoroughly unpleasant characters within his grass roots. Like it or not he cannot always say what he wants to as it will simply not fly and he will face an insurrection. Before you know he'll be out on his tod. The tories will move further to the right with a new back to basics leader and we'll be stuck with Labour for another 4/5 years - no thank you. I am all for some more right wing policies as part of a wider social contract as Blair/Brown's policies ahve been good for the economy but very bad for some neighbourhoods/communities esp. in the inner cities. I think people overestimate Brown, yes he is statesman like and solid. Purposeful etc... but does he have what it takes beyond those TV friendly adjectives? I don't think so. He is of the same ilk as Blair and his coalition of all the talents is lamentable. He should have faith in the quality of people within his own party and if he doesn't that she be a warning to us all. Labour has run out of steam. Some years in opposition will reinvigorate them.

Re: West Dulwich Forum new Posted by: citizenED Yesterday, 09:06PM Downsouth, group I went to, on Thursdays 9.30 - 12 noon, caters for 2.5 yr-olds to 5 yr-olds and "offers structured play for you and your child with crafts, contruction toys and a sit down story time.." according to their pamphlet. It was OK. My little one enjoyed himself interacting with the other little ones. Well worth the ?3. citizen ............................... Thanks, will have to pop in one day. DM - last year my best friend's dad was robbed at knife point at the petrol station on East Dulwich Road. These things happen I'm afraid. Sad but true.

There is a difference between the earnings f city financial bods and those who are senior management CEO level in a FTSE company. You'll actually find that the former has far less responsibility/accountability but their performance is as far as can be said based on their own efforts whereas a CEO has far more responsibility/accountability and scutiny however their performance is far to hard to define with things like 'total shareholder return' and the waxing and waning of the share price. To top it off though it is the CEO who will go to jail and be harrassed when things go bad and in the scheme of things earns nothing compared to the first group. Traders, Fund Managers, Hedge Fund Managers, Privaty Equity and Investment Bank head honcho's: Masters of the Universe - are in a completely different stratosphere to your bog standard CEO of BP (?2m). In saying all this I don't begrudge any of them. Poverty is an absolute not a relative issue therefore provided there aren't children in the streets malnourished, we have access to health and education for all at the point of delivery then it is fine.

James I suppose it depends on what's your definition of something to see? If you see my post earlier I thought there were a few things but each to their own. Citizen ED - I know that centre - it is in fact just over the border into West Norwood but like I said before you would never know! What was the group like and for which age as I've often though of taking my little one along one day.

Voila http://uk.news.yahoo.com/itn/20070822/tuk-man-arrested-for-stealing-broadband-dba1618_1.html

There was an article in the paper last week I believe - the guy was fined and or jailed!

As said this is only a rough outline - I knew I should have put a disclaimer up! Re electoral wards - they never match be they in Dulwich or Dundee. Just depends on which governing party needs the votes titled in their favour. 'Most' of the old Dulwich constituency was merged with West Norwood to form what we know today but that still leaves out Peckham Rye, South Camberwell ward and parts of The Lanes which went over to Peckham and Camberwell ward. The current Dulwich and West Norwood ward acquired parts of Thurlow Park, Herne Hill and Coldharbour from Streatham and Vauxhall ward.

James Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Susyp, do you work for Blue Mountain!? Very > suspicious. The service there is shoddy and the > food amateurish in the extreme. They would have > every reason to be worried about Le C stealing > their business... Not in my experince. I've been there when they are really busy and you have to que to sit down but they are so frinedly and attentive that it matters not one jot and I'm famously impatient. Also, they are doing so well that they've recently opened a new branch in Gipsy Hill.

It's SE22 so East. The black line should extend to meet the blue one so that it would be just inside. These are approximations after all. It is the only bit of SE22 on the south circular.

And in addition taken from St Stephens website: History Built 1867 - 75; consecrated 1868 Architect; Banks and Barry Listed Grade II In 1868, only a handful of people lived in the leafy part of Surrey now known as Dulwich, on a few dairy farms and in modern gracious villas. St. Stephen, in the woods on College Road, a beautiful neo-gothic church, was commissioned from the famous Victorian architect, Sir Charles Barry, to seat a congregation of seven hundred. The church was built by private subscription without endowments, and with the extra gift of a fresco by Sir Edward Poynter Their website proclaims South Dulwich at the top: http://www.ststephensdulwich.org/history.html and so does a history of one house on College Road "Dunlica" (now St John's Wood house) which reads A tall, old-looking detached house on College Rd (pleasant road which runs between Dulwich College and a park), Dulwich (the S end, this location also described as in "South Dulwich"), SC London (London SE21). http://humphrysfamilytree.com/OMeara/dunlica.html

That's because this whole part of Dulwich was wooded and the separation of Sydenham and Dulwich far more pronounced. So the station was called Sydenham Hill to mark its location to the rest of Dulwich i.e. on the approach to Sydenham Hill in a clearing in Dulwich Woods http://www.ideal-homes.org.uk/southwark/dulwich/sydenham-hill-station.htm . But if you take Dulwich to be the land owned by the Dulwich estate it is more Dulwich than all the areas on the east of Lordship Lane which were originally part of Friern Manor Farm.

I'm not anti-Foxtons, far from it. i've never used them. They look nice and flashy but hey what do I know? I simply object to the identikit approach to high streets with LL is in danger of becoming. Diversity is needed and if and when the economy takes a serious turn - as it is bound to - it would be better to have shops selling things people needed instead of want.

The harvester is where Lordship Lane and Dulwich Common intersect (Red and Black lines on the right). The concrete house is located just further along Lordship Lane where it meets London Road. Mockney - I didn't mean to leave North Dulwich out but it's so small and is really a marketing ploy by estate agents. If anything it is really Herne Hill although I know that will irk anyone who lives there. Re: South Dulwich - there are only a few hundred people living in their large detached houses/private apartments and perhaps a thousand on the estate housing the old Kingswood house (below) http://img107.imageshack.us/img107/6522/kingswoodqy4.jpg http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/1434/kingswood1ie0.jpg beyond that there is more greenery (i.e. Dulwich and Sydenham Woods) than concrete. The local church St Stephens states its address as South Dulwich. http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/9875/ststephenschurchto9.jpg As said before it is often referred to as West Dulwich or on its extremeties as Gipsy Hill.

I couldn't agree more. It's not as though they 'generate' any wealth for an area. Fair enough theu do some advertising but really they ride on the coat tails and for me are the equivalent of a tax - push up value of property and take their slice every time. A computer shop come internet cafe IT technical college or something - 'useful' - would be far more appreciated. Is there no master planning?

You've also got Ichiban in Brixton - Brixton has two sushi places close by - the other being Fujiyama. Magosteen mentioned before i think is more Vietnamese but they have some sushi like dishes. They are on the parade of shops at Gipsy Hill/West Dulwich border http://www.squaremeal.co.uk/restaurants/london/view/83643/Mangosteen A little further away by train is a proper sushi restaurant; Tsunami which I'm told is quite nice. It is a 20 minute bus ride on the 37 bus to Clapham High Street or if you can get to Denmark hill train it's a 5 minute train ride to the Clapham High street station. http://www.squaremeal.co.uk/restaurants/london/view/81447/Tsunami

DM - just to add. Along with setting up the WDF I will be on here also. It's not easy to find so much peace and love in one place...

I have a similar ego related to table football - I'm unstoppable!

Surely that shops is too large - what a waste. aren't there already enough estate agents on the strip?

You can always set up an account with Imageshack - it takes a couple of minutes and from there you can upload photos quite easily. http://www.imageshack.us I too feel the warmth and a sudden wave of goodwill to all men (and women!). The flutter of peace on my face has redeemed my faith in human kind. In the spirit of our new found nirvana I thought I'd finish off my little map and add East Duwlich (outline in black) and the Village/Central area and Common (circled in blue) so that there is an overall impression of where the areas relate. http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/9910/allofdulwichdc1.jpg http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/9910/allofdulwichdc1.013b5d9c88.jpg Back in ye old days the entire manor of Dulwich incorporated roughly the area highlighted (although it was slightly smaller on the East part (I believe Lordship Lane was the dividing line) and on the West (Croxted Road was more or less the dividing line) and larger on the Southern part (extending into what are now Sydenham Hill and Duwlich and Sydenham Woods and reaching right up to Crystal Palace Park).

Keef, I think you may be on to something ;-) As some of you have never heard of West Dulwich or are unsure where/what it covers I have annoatted a very basic perimeter in orange. The area of turquoise is 'South Dulwich' which many consider West. Croxted and South Croxted Road run down through the centre and mark the boundaries of Southwark (on the right) and Lambeth (on the left) boroughs. Lordship Lane is in the far right hand corner with only a tiny part of it visible (peach coloured main road). The fact that West Duwlich is on a different train line to North and East Duwlich (Victoria to Kent) is perhaps part of the reason for it not being well known on the Eastern side of Dulwich altough those in the Village - who are within walking distance - are quite familiar. http://img379.imageshack.us/img379/4460/westandsouthdulwichaj4.jpg As you can see it is quite sizeable - albeit nowhere as large or densely populated as East Dulwich. West Dulwich Train station (on south circular) is encircled in pink, main shopping area on Park Hall Road/Croxted Road in red and shops on Rosendale in blue. To the West of West Duwlich north of the cemetery is West Norwood - no there's not an East Norwood although they have an upper, South and junction. The roads between the two are indistinguishable until you reach Norwood Road itself which is very different - think Peckham High Street on a much smaller scale. Louisa - Tulse Hill is the next area to the West of West Dulwich along the south Circular. In terms of your question why bother set up a forum, the point would be for those who live in the area to develop an online community. The fact that you haven't heard of West Dulwich doesn't negate the point. There are plenty of people who haven't heard of East Dulwich but that's not a reason for this fantastic forum to not exist. Other things of note over this side include: Belair Park which is very pretty and has the 200 hundred year Beauberry House see the link for a good guide to its history http://www.beauberryhouse.co.uk , the nearby West Norwood cemetery is one of the orignal great victorian cemeteries that were bulit as London began to expand with the industrial revolution http://www.fownc.org/index.shtml It houses many famous residents and their memorials/mausolea of that era - Mrs Beeton, Sir Henry Doulton, Dr William Marsden, Baron Julius de Reuter, Charles Spurgeon and Sir Henry Tate of the Tate family. We also have the Grade 1 listed All Saints Church, originally intended to the be the Cathedral of South London. Gutted by fire in 2000 http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/london/3681077.stm this gargantuan church has been redeveloped following successful fundraising their current website is down but here is some information http://www.southwark.anglican.org/parishes/305t_a.htm as many of you know there is Dulwich College itself http://www.dulwich.org.uk/ which is a beautiful building and it hosts a farmers' market on Sundays Thatch and Co one of our local estate agents has a good albeit now slightly out-of-date summary which could have saved me the trouble of typing the above! http://www.thatchandco.com/locations/West_Dulwich.htm Hopefully this will make you see that there is a bit more to 'Dulwich' and it will encourage you to see more of it. I will be taking up Mark's kind offer of assitance and perhaps in a year or two we'll also have a great forum just like this one. Cheers Downsouth